(0:00)The Pastor Tattoo Controversy
a pastor, you know, got a tattoo recently. Oh, yes. And is causing a kathuffle. Yeah. In the body of Christ and people are saying all sorts of things. But somebody quoted a scripture that I find very interesting about how if you take on the role, you'll be judged more strictly. Right. And the interpretation was that if you're a pastor, God judges you more strictly. And I was so irritated because the implication of that is that there are some sins and transgression and stuff that for pastors Jesus didn't die for. So once you're a pastor, there's a certain portion of your sins that Jesus didn't die for. How can that be the meaning of that? That God is going to judge you differently because you're a pastor. How if God is judging all of us on the basis of what Jesus Christ did? Mhm. Being a pastor does not exempt certain things from that. So what does it mean? It means that people will judge you differently. Mhm. People will treat you differently. The scrutiny will be intense. So be careful. But it's not a God thing. It's a people thing. unfiltered
(1:00)Welcome to the Tithing Debate
Kenneth. Hello. Hello. Welcome to PF Unfiltered. My name is Kenneth Oniinde and I have with me here today Esther Griffin and our incredible Why are you so moren beaten and battered? I'm just here. I'm here. Just so you won't get fined. Exactly. Were you quite Were you off yesterday? I'm off on Mondays on paper. On paper. So what is typically happening on Mondays? Typically I'm supposed to be resting. What's happening? People are calling the people from the church. Yes. Yes. Yeah. A pastor's work is never done. You know, when the sheep need you, they they need you. Yeah. You know, it is what it is. No complaints. Yeah. Yep. So, what are we here to do today? We're talking about something that's a little controversial and it's tithing. Yeah. You know, I don't understand why Titan is controversial. I I mean I I feel like I understand why it's controversial. Mhm. But I don't understand why we make such a fuss about it.
(2:15)Are we being honest about money?
Because we're so tied to money. Yeah. Yeah. Call it what it is. Nobody wants to let their money go and fill it. Yeah. But we but we don't say that's why we're we're we don't we we don't we're not honest. It's not an honest conversation. That's why it's a commitment that frustrates me. Yeah. Right. People should say I don't want to give my money to anybody. Instead, we make up all of these reasons other than we just don't want to give our money to anything or anybody. Right. So we we blame the we say the Bible doesn't say that. We say all sorts of things. Yeah. Right. But at the root of it, I think is a is an inherent desire to keep what we earn. Right? And do what we want with it. Right? And that I think is why the argument never ends. Because as long as human nature is human nature, the idea of giving is always going to be a challenge. You know, people will tell you that, oh, why are people giving money to church? They should give money to charity. Nine out of 10 people who are telling you to give money to charity don't give a dime to charity.
(3:20)The 'Give to Charity Instead' Myth
Like they don't give a dime to charity. And I've seen this because people that actually give to charity don't see anything wrong with giving to churches. Yes. In fact, it's interesting, you know, it's like I've had folks who say to me, PF, you know, we need to do more stuff for the community. You know, we need to do uh a food pantry. We need to do all of this. And when we start doing those things, not just that, people don't, they won't bring the food, the cans, So, so I'm I'm I'm so it's a conversation that I get very um irritated with because I think many times many times I think it's a dishonest conversation, right? But sometimes, you know, but I will engage. So, let's talk about tithing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, talking about honestly. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Talking about reasons why people feel a certain way about tithing, right? Is because people have felt a level of abuse. Mhm. Okay. from the church using that that
(4:15)Defining Abuse of the Tithe
word or that concept of tithing. So what is abuse? What is abuse of the tithe? What is the abuse of the tithe? The mismanagement of funds. What what is that? Meaning that you use tithing money when you should be using it to keep the lights on in the church. Put it towards the the HVAC systems. Um make sure that there no potholes in the parking lot. You're using it to buy private jet. You're using it to buy. So the problem is not the tithe. The problem is the person managing that tithe. Exactly. Yes. Okay. I got you. I think it's a it's a So let's have that conversation. Yeah. About bad leadership. Yes. Not the principle. In addition, let me add. Okay. Okay. You see why I say it's not an honest conversation. Let me add in addition to that
(5:00)The Chanel and Luxury Brand Problem
when we see pastors that are dressed in Chanel, dressed in Louis, and the reason why I'm calling out these brands because they're expensive. expensive. They're expensive for the average person in the United States of America. People that are earning, right? I think the medium salary for the US is like 70,000, right? So, people who are earning this in a in a in a household of four are not going to be dressing in Chanel unless it's passed down by their grandmother or grandfather. They're not they're not going to go out and buy those things. Then you now see your pastor, mind you, you're giving your a portion of your funds to help build the church, to help fund missions, to help spread the gospel. And then you see your pastor who is a full-time pastor, meaning he has dedicated his life and his his everything to pastoring the people in the church now wearing Chanel. Are you okay? So ask a question. Are you the only person the pastor is pastoring? He pastoring everyone in the church. Okay. So he's pastoring everybody in the church. So that's you plus um how many other people? Okay. Let's No, no, no. Let's say 2,000 people. Okay. So he's pastoring 2,000 people. Yes. Right. What is involved in his job? invol counseling. Counseling. Okay. Uh what how many hours? Let's even How many hours does he work a week? He the all hours, all times. There's He's not He's never off.
(6:20)A Pastor's 80-Hour Work Week
Okay. So So you work 40 hours a week? No. We us two, we're never off. No. What? How you off? There's always work to be done. Bank of America keeps you up until There's always work to be done. No, no, no, no, no. Calm down. We're talking about work now, right? So I'm a pastor. Yeah. Right. Monday is my day off because Sunday is not a day off for me. I'm in church in Sunday. I'm in church the whole day or Sunday and I'm in church in some form the whole day Saturday. Monday is my day off. Correct. Right. Yes. Which would be the equivalent of your Saturday. Yes. Right. Yes. And I am working. Mhm. Right. I am on the phone counseling with people throughout the day. Yes. I don't get any breaks. Yes. 24/7. The last call that I take comes in at about 10 10:30. right this morning back at it. It's like that the whole week. Yeah. Right. Then I'm going to do Bible study and I'm going to be in church until 12. Sorry, until 10. Mhm. Right. And then rinse, repeat and all of that. So invariably I'm working not 40 hours a week. I'm working close to 80 hours a week. Right. And the kind of work I do requires a level of intellectual capacity. Right? It involves So I'm I'm counseling people, right? Um it requires emotional work. Correct. Right. I am preaching, preparing sermons and I am running an organization to keep the lights on, to keep things the trains showing up on time requires organizational skill. So I am deploying all of this skill to make sure right that you have a great experience. I am praying for you. I am studying for you. I'm doing all of this stuff for you. But I'm not doing it just for you. Let's assume that you are contributing 10% of your income. Your 10% can't do jack for nobody. Mhm. Right. There are 2,000 people. That's why you are able to come to church. Right. Right. Out of the 10% that the 2,000 people contribute, they pay me a salary. Mhm. Right. I manage my resources in such a way that I'm able to buy myself a Chanel watch.
(8:30)Why you shouldn't begrudge a Rolex
Why should you begrudge me that? I'm not taking your 10%. Let's use Rolex. Rolex watch. I have a Rolex watch. Excellent. Why should you begrudge me a Rolex watch? Right. That I am using money that I work hard for, excuse me, to pay for. I didn't steal your money. I didn't take your 10% and buy a Rolex watch. Mhm. I took out of my paycheck. Mhm. Managing my resources as I chose and I bought a Rolex watch. So if I do that, yes. Right. I don't think anybody should be grudging with that. They shouldn't. I don't think so. I think the Bible says the laborer is worthy of his wages. One, the Bible also says do not muzzle the ox that threads the corn. Right? In my language they say he who walks by the pulpit should eat from the pulpit. Right? It's a spiritual principle right? If I'm spending 80 hours a week on ensuring that this building and this service and all of these services are available to you, right, where is the time for me to get a job? Mhm. Right. And if I'm being paid from this job, Mhm. Right. And I manage my resources in such a way that the legally allowable income that I receive, you're basically telling me how I should spend my money. Well, I have a question. Is there a
(10:00)CEO of a Mega-Church vs. Mom & Pop
h okay so for let's think about a mega church for instance there are thousands of people that go to that church there thousand people that give right so okay that pastor what is the percentage that pastors receive from their congregants so a pastor's salary is set by the leadership by whatever government the church has okay right you cannot expect the CEO of a mom and pop. Mhm. To earn the same as a CEO of a Fortune 500. There's scale to the work, right? That we refuse to recognize when it comes to pastors. When I was pastoring a church of 60 people, I would have days when nobody called me. Mhm. Days. I'm pastoring a church of close to 2,000 people. You should see my phone. It is constantly ringing. And then I wake up at 5:00 a.m. to do a prayer meeting at 6:00 a.m. Right? I sleep 5 hours a day, right? On a good day, we're recording the podcast. When I'm done with the podcast, there's somebody waiting for me. We'll be done recording at about 10:00. Mhm. I'm going into a conversation with somebody. As we were recording the podcast, I got two messages of what am I saying? Three message of conversation that I need to have. Right. You can't begrudge me being paid, right? And how am I going to be paid? The Bible specifies. Mhm. Right. Bring the tithe into the storehouse. Mhm. Right. And it is there. God does not eat meat. Right. It is so that the people who serve there who are doing the 80 hours, right, can be paid. And if you pay me change, I won't do it because I am entitled
(11:45)No Virtue in Poverty
to a good life. Serving God is not um a sentence of poverty. It's not it's not scriptural. There's no virtue in poverty just as there's no virtue in wealth. Yeah. As long as I do not take what has not been allotted to me by the government by the governing govern body of the church, then nobody has the right to tell me what to do with it. So here's the thing, right? In the
(12:10)The Need for Church Governance
United States, there are many churches that don't have a government. And that's why they can go and just make decisions anywhere. I will tell you this. If you if you if you if you join yourself to a church that has no government and you are okay with it. But then how do you know how do you how do you you ask what is the governing what is the governing document of this church? What what is the governing body of this church? Right? And if and and part of one way of of running a church is to have a pastor and no directors is is not unscriptural. Mhm. Right. But this is the thing. Yeah. We need to be clear. Are we accusing people of stealing? Are we accusing people of misappropriation? Are they doing something illegal? Are they doing something unethical? Are they doing something unscriptural? Are they doing something immoral? Right? If we're talking about scripture, let's have that conversation. If we're talking about illegality, let's have that conversation. If we're talking about immorality or if we're talking about uh something being unethical, let's have that question, right? I'm happy to I'm happy to have those conversations. But what I don't like, yeah, is using scripture, right, out of context as a basis to justify our own personal individual preferences. Right. You would like for your pastor to be uh a moderate person who, you know, doesn't wear bright colors, who wears, you know, the same outfit Sunday in, Sunday out, you know, who who doesn't like, you know, who who eats only salads and and and locusts and and honey, you know, John the Baptist. You would like a John the Baptist. That's fine. There are churches with John the John, you know, that have that. Yeah. Right. Don't go to a church of 50,000 people where the pastor to pastor 50,000 people. They should pay him well. Mhm. They should. But what what do you think about then? Because I think also the gripe is that people are not modest. Pastor Pastors don't seem Don't you can't That's the thing. Our our we're hypocrites. Why? You're trying to police my modesty when you yourself. You're not you're not modest. No. But the other thing people are upset is because when you see your pastor wearing all of these really really expensive things and you have people in your church that don't have those things, it becomes a issue because they say so what you're saying why aren't you giving to the people to the less fortunate? Yes. So don't pay the pastor a salary. Mhm. Right. Give to the less fortunate. Mhm. Not exactly. What exactly? So everything you pay the pastor less. No, no, no. I I think it should be proportional. Right. Right. So pay the pastor. Pay the pastor less. Like I I love what you said, right? So a church of 60 people to a church of 2,000, 50,000, there should definitely be a significant difference in the shepherd in terms of what they even look like cuz they're getting paid at a different sign. I think the big problem like I think what we're really trying to say is when you see a church of like 80 people and then the pastor is going around in a bent league. So, so, so, so, first of all, first of all, that is not common, right? Second of all, let's look at how much the pastor is being paid. Mhm. Right. So, let me give a class example. If I am paid $2,000 a year, and I write a book, right, that you don't know about and I make $1.5 million from my book, right? and I buy myself a Bentley. Confirm first where the money is coming from Mhm. before you decide I'm stealing your money. Cuz sometimes eh there's no money to steal. Yeah. Sometimes you see I I pastored a church where they paid me a salary and as they paid me salary, I put it back in the offering. Right. But my wife had a great job. Yeah. and her job financed our life. It would be a mistake to think it was your offering that did it, right? But people will not find out. They're going to assume and then you demand of me, right, that I don't dress a certain way, right? Because you are personally offended by it. God does not demand it of me. It's a cultural thing. Mhm. In some cultures, pastors dress very flamboyantly. But they say in America though, they'll say he's not being modest, that he's trying to flaunt his modesty, modesty, modesty is in the eye of the beholder. You know, you know they said to Jesus, physician, heal thyself, right? If you're preaching to people that God will bless them and you look like God has punished you, those same people are going to be the one that Why am I going to listen to that wretched man tell me about the prosperity and the blessings of God? Yeah. M you know this thing is not as simple as we always want to make it seem but pastors are an easy target. Yeah. And it's so unfair because the church suffers, you know, that's the irony. You know, how do they say it? Um, mess around and find out, right? Because nobody wants to be a pastor anymore. Nobody wants to be a pastor anymore. If pastor is if pastoring is so is so well paid. Even getting money from people is so easy. People should be rushing to pastoring. Nobody in America wants to be a pastor. Mhm. The average age of pastors in the in the 50s, right, and 60s was in the 40s. Now it's in the 60s. Oh, yes. Young people are not coming in anymore. Do you know why? Because nobody wants to be vilified. And nobody wants to suffer. Nobody wants to even carry the weight of the responsibility of shephering people. You know, somebody somebody quoted um a pastor, you know, got a tattoo recently. Oh, yes. And it's it's it's causing a kafuffle in the body of Christ. And people are saying all sorts of things. I have my opinions on it, but that's not even but somebody quoted a scripture that I find very interesting. I'm trying to remember the exact location about how um you know, if you take on the role, you'll be judged more strictly. Right? And the interpretation was that if you're a pastor, God judges you more strictly. Right? And I was so irritated because the implication of that is that there are some sins and transgressions and and and and stuff that for pastors Jesus didn't die for. Right? So once you're a pastor, there's a certain portion of your sins that Jesus didn't die for. H right how can that be the meaning of that? That God is going to judge you differently because you're a pastor. How if God is not if God is judging all of us on the basis of what Jesus Christ did? Mhm. Being a pastor does not exempt certain things from that. So what does it mean? It means that people will judge you Mhm. differently. Mhm. People will treat you differently. The scrutiny will be intense. Right. So be so be careful. But it's not a God thing. It's a people thing. Right. And it's not supposed to be so. Right. With any gathering of people, there will be issues. Yeah. Right. They're issues. our leaders, there are issues with our leaders, our political leaders, their issues, right? Our our finance, our leaders in commerce and finance, their issues. So, yeah, there are issues with pastors, but we make it seem as if you know pastors, pastors, and and I'm a pastor and I'm telling you, if I had a child now and my child want to pastor, I'd be like, are you sure? And it's not a God problem. It's that church folks can be mean. Church folks want to want to want you to be in a position, right, where you are the poor cousin. Yeah. They want to be they want some church folks there's some church folks who want their pastor and I thank God that I pastor a church where 99.9% of the folks want me to do well. Mhm. Right. You don't use scripture to tie me to poverty, right? Because you're the same folks who if I look poor, you say, "I can't go to that church. Can you see how that pastor looks like he's hungry?" Am I Am I lying? No, you're not. So, what does the Bible say about the tithe? Let's talk about that honestly without any um um um um um ulterior motivation. Let's not walk from an answer. Okay, let's look at scripture. What does the scripture say about the tithe? And let's look at the first time a tithe is mentioned in the Bible. Mhm. Was when um Abraham went to fight the Malachites or something. No, no, no. Some kings, the guys who took um um Lot. Right. And he met a guy called Melkisedc, the king of Salem. Mhm. Right. Was he a is Was he a Israelite? No. The Israelite? There was no Israelites. Theology says that Melkisedc was a type of Christ. Okay. the king of peace. Right? And Abraham as an act of worship gave him a tithe. Okay. Right. 10% of all his winnings, all his all the all his conquest. I haven't read this story in a I I don't remember reading the story before. That's the first time the tithe is mentioned in scripture. Mhm. Right. Okay. That he gave mec. So did Abraham go out to win a war or Yes. He fought a war and he won. Okay. Okay. And all the spoils of the world. He gave mec 10%. Okay. He gave the king 10%. Melkisedc, not just the king. Okay. He gave mec 10%. And it's important that is meedc. Okay. Now remember that Abraham was not under the law. Was it Abraham? There was no law. There was no law. So out of the free will of his heart, he gave 10% to mec. Okay. Right. He was not compelled to. It was not demanded of him. Right? Fast forward. It was out of love, out of um appreciation, honor. Right. Now, also there was no priesthood. Right. There was no um organization, organizational worship of God. Mhm. Fast forward, Moses, the Israelites are leaving Egypt. Mhm. And they get to mount the mountain and then the law comes, right? And then God says, I'm creating institutional worship. Mhm. I'm creating an organization. In order to sustain that organization, I need resources. Yeah. So, the 12 sons of Israel, right? I'm going to assign responsibility to them, right? I'm going to assign um not responsibility, um let's say jobs to them, right? So, he gives everybody a job. And then he says to the house, the family of Levi. Yeah. Right. He says, "You guys don't work, no farms, no land for you." Mhm. Right. You guys be responsible for worship, right? But in order for you to survive, since you're not getting any land, everybody, we'll say pastoring for our time. No, pastor. No, just worship. Worship. Okay. In order for you to survive Mhm. Everybody is going to give 10% of their income. Okay. So that 10% was contribution, right? So that the Levites will be provided for since they didn't get any land since they're doing the worship on behalf of the people. Yes. Okay. Yes. Right. That's one expression of the tithe. There was another one where the people would put aside some money every year and then at a certain time they would gather together and they would have a big party. Okay. Right. That's another expression. So under the law there were I think two two different ways of tithing under the law. Mhm. Fast forward. Jesus dies. No, don't fast forward. Malachi uh Malachi is under the law. Malachi is God at making promises, right? saying the people had not been tithing and God says in not tithing you're robbing me right you're disobeying me and as a consequence I'm punishing you were they not given to the Levites they weren't okay they weren't and some of the were also corrupt also corrupt okay right so anyway fast forward Malachi is under the law it's important that we know that Malachi is under the law the reason why I bring that up is because a lot of people use that as okay so so so it's it's it's an easy verse of scripture to use but it is usually used in churches that are already preaching from the law. Right. Right. So if you're preaching from the law and you guys are throwing around the ten commandments and you are okay with your pastor throwing around the ten commandments, then you have got to be okay with Malachi, right? Cuz Malachi and the ten commandments, they go hand in hand. You can't say, "Oh, we're doing the ten commandments, but how dare you bring up Malachi." No, it's the same system. Yeah. Right. If you reject Malika, you reject ten commandments. Mhm. It's a system thing. It's a covenant thing. Right. Fast forward, the new covenant. Okay. Right. The tithe goes away. Mhm. You're no longer under the law. So there's you are not compelled to give Mhm. under the law. But but but sorry we give a free will offering to sustain the institutional worship. Right? We give a free will offering to facilitate the preaching of the gospel. Right? The tithe comes in because the Bible says Jesus Christ is a priest according to the order of Mechisedc. So if you give a tithe to Christ, it is an act of worship in the same way that Abraham gave a tithe to Melisedc. But it is a free will offering. It is a choice you make. You are not compelled to do it. You don't have to do it. But that means you must have spoils then to give. What are spoils? Okay. To your point about uh Abraham had won a war and out of the um excess excess of the war it wasn't the excess I mean out of what he won out of what he got he gave no excess excess is not the word excess out of what he got out of the spoils the spoils he got 10% out of what he got characterizing it as abundance as spoils as characterizing it as excess implies that you worship out of excess right right you worship out of whatever it is you have proposed to do in your heart. Mhm. Right. Whether it is out of your excess or out of your lack, right? It is a choice you make that nobody can impose on you. That's my point. So if somebody decides to tithe, there are blessings attached to tithing. There are blessings attached to a free will offering. The Bible says that when you give a tithe, God will open the windows of heaven and pour out rain. Yeah. And everybody receives rain. So it's talking about a supernatural reign that goes beyond the normal reign. Mhm. Right. So the tithe is a choice that people make under the new covenant. You are not compelled to give a tithe. Yeah. Under the new covenant. What people and this is why I say it's dishonest. What people want is to stay under the old covenant so they can be self-righteous and talk about how they have earned whatever blessing is in their life. M but then they want to cut and paste. Mhm. Right. Dissect and separate. Okay. I'm going to stone the adulterer, but I don't want to tithe. No. If you're stoning the adulter, you're tithing. Tithing. Yeah. And if you're not tithing, the devourer is coming for you. If you don't tithe, they will be tied. Under the old covenant. Yeah. Under the new covenant, there's a ble. You see, this is the thing. The new covenant, right? What the new covenant does is that it takes away the curses, the punishment, but it doesn't take away the promises and the blessings. If you read Deuteronomy 28, the first half of it is full of blessings. The second half is full of curses. Jesus Christ says, the Bible says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, not from the blessings. Wow, that was a revelation. Christ has redeemed us from the curse. Right. Correct. So, so all the curses Christ has paid, he was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon him. Yeah. And by his stripes, we are healed. All the punishment that comes with disobedience, Christ took it. Mhm. And because he obeyed, we received the blessings of obedience. Do you get my point? Yes. The tithe, right, is for me an opportunity to be blessed, right? Because it's a principle. The Bible says what you sow, you will reap. Yeah. The tithe for me is an opportunity to sow. Yes. I teach the tithe, but I don't teach the tithe from if you don't tithe, it will be tight. I teach the tithe from if you don't tithe, God says he causes the sun to shine on both the believer and the unbeliever alike. He causes the rain to fall. on both the good and the evil. So you will receive sunshine for your crops. You will receive rain for your crops, but you will not receive more than everyone else. Because God does not pour more rain on somebody. The rain is falls on everybody equally. But when you tithe, Mhm. right, he says, I will open the windows of heaven and pour out on you a blessing that you will not have enough room to contain. Wow. So there is a supplemental rain and blessing that God releases on a person who is willing to invest in his work. Right? If you look at um why is that not prosperity gospel? Why is that not prosperity? How is it prosperity? Why is it prosperity gospel? I don't know. Call it what you like. Because God the prosperity gospel is problematic in the sense that it teaches materialism. Okay? Right? Worship and materialism are not the same thing. Mhm. Right. But God said, "Test me in this." Mhm. It is not unethical. It is not unscriptural to say God said if you do A B C D I will do E F GH. Labeling the prosperity gospel. That's the lie. That's the mis mislabeling, right? So the prosperity gospel is problematic in that it teaches materialism. When you teach the word of God, how do you teach the word of God and not teach that God said when God said, right? Didn't God say it? So, but I think also we equate him opening up the floodgates. We think that it's only about money. Let me tell you what it is. Is it only about money? It is about what you sow, right? It's about what you sow. And the Bible says this about seed. It says, "Sow your seed in the morning and do not withhold your hand in the evening cuz you do not know which one will prosper." Right? The Bible says cast your bread upon the waters and after many days it will return to you. Right? The reality of this is this. I believe sincerely that if you give whether it is money, whether it is time, whether it is kindness, you will reap back money, kindness and time. But the Bible says with the same measure that you give, you will receive. Let me give you a classic example and this is going to be controversial, but I'm going to say it anyway. Jesus Christ gave told a parable of a guy who had five talents and another one who had two and another one who had one. Right? The guy who had two, he worked hard with the two. What did he get back? He got two more. Mhm. The guy who got five worked hard for the five. What did he get back? Five. They were never going to have the same. The gospel is not about equality of outcomes. It was never about the quality of outcomes. So imagine talking about sewing for example if the guy who had to swed one of the talents right give one of the talents away based off of tithe on one of the talents and God is going to give him back 30fold 60fold 100fold let's say 100fold 100fold of one is a 100fold of one is always going to be less than 100fold of five right that's what people have a problem with they think that if I tithe on $10 which is I'm going to get the same thing as somebody who tithe on 1 million. Yeah. No. Yeah. It doesn't work like that. And contentment is not that I expect, sorry, discontentment, not having contentment is not that, oh, I I I sold a dollar and God says I'm going to increase it a h 100fold and so I get back my mouth is off $100. I expect a $100. That's fine. Mhm. Is when I'm like, I sold a dollar, but I'm expecting a million. Come on. Yeah. And then I look at that guy who sold 10,000. Yeah. And God gave him a million. And I said the prosperity go read the Bible. God did not promise us equal outcomes. But sorry, God did not promise us equal things here, but he promised us an equal outcome with him. Because if you look at those guys, the one who got who sold who who worked hard and multiplied the two Mhm. And the one who worked hard and multiplied the five, they got the same um same compliment. Well done, good and faithful servant. He didn't say, "Oh, you who got 10, well done, oh masterful manipulator, master of the universe." No, he it was the same thing, right? So the tithe is scriptural, under the new covenant, the dynamic is different. It's a free will offering, right? It's a free will offering. It's a supplemental thing. God is going to give you rain. He's going to give you sun. Period. I want to emphasize something. And what it is is that and you were clear for it, but I want to emphasize it. Jesus Christ has taken away the curse, the punishment of a curse. Mhm. He has redeemed us from the curse. He's redeemed us from the curse of the law. of the law. Yes. Meaning that we will no longer be punished. Yes. For anything that has to do with the law if we do not obey the law. Yes. Because Christ has in fact because Christ has died for it. Because in fact the Bible is emphatic, right? That Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Bible is clear and spells explicitly that we are no longer under obligation to the law. Yeah. Right. And when the Bible says the law is talking about the 613 laws you find in the first five books of the Old Testament, right? What I think is a problem, right, is that a we don't read the Bible. We follow a lot of what people say. M I I listened to a man who was talking very emphatically about how pastors should not be paid and I'm like where do you get that from? And he said oh Paul was a tent maker but Paul said I don't take a paycheck. If I did it would have been my right to do so. I chose not to take it. Paul was a tent maker. Right. It was convenient for his ministry. We don't know the fullness of Peter's dynamic. Paul didn't have a wife. Peter had a wife, right? So when Paul said, "I didn't take a salary from you. If I did, it would have been within my rights." How do we then turn that into doctrine? When he explicitly stated that he was allowed to, he chose not to. Right. Right. But because we're walking to an answer, we don't look at all the numbers. Yeah. We don't look at all the scripture. We're walking to an answer. And the answer is vilify these people. Right. Yes. They their excesses and their issues. Right. Right. I'm going to turn 60 in in 3 years, right? Yeah. I know I don't look it, but I'm going to turn 60 in 3 years, right? At some point in time, I would like to do some things. Mhm. I know they are just material things. Please, how can we fund this thing? What do you want to do? Please tell us. Make your make I I want to get a car. There's a car I want to drive. I want to It's a Bentley Continental GT in British racing car green. Okay. Right. I know that one. Yeah. If anybody decides want to bless me with the car, I promise you I will drive the car. If God blesses me with the resources to buy the car, I'll buy the car. Sure. What I will not do Mhm. is I will not deprive the church of any benefit of anything that will advance the kingdom. Yeah. Because I want to buy a car. M I will not refuse to give food. I will not stop the church from feeding a hungry person. M right because I want to buy the car. Mhm. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Because I'm already driving a nice car. Yeah. Right. So I don't need that car. I like the car. I would like to drive it. I want to give it to myself for my 60th birthday. But it is contingent on it not in any way hindering the gospel. Right. Now, if I make that determination, right, anybody who's got a problem with it can come and ask me, I will tell you how I made that determination. Right. Every year, the church leadership sets a budget for the church. Yeah. And they budget a salary for the staff, including me. Mhm. Right. The budget is set based on the expenses, the projected income and the projected expenses. Mhm. Right. So when we're setting money aside for charity, for example, because we have charity in our budget. We have in our budget money to help the homeless. We have in our budget money to help people who walk through the doors. We have in our budget money to help the people who are in the church, right? And we do. Yeah. True. Just shameless plug, we actually had um the pastors that run the finance um committee here on the podcast. They her and her husband did an episode talking about money. So if you haven't seen that episode, go back and watch that. But they weren't talking about church money, by the way. They were talking about their own personal It's um it's it's a good podcast, too. Yeah. So, so they decide how much they're going to set aside for charity based off of how many people came and asked for help last year, right? That money then helps us decide how much money we have left to do other things, right? We got to pay the mortgage cuz if there's no mortgage is not pay, we can't have service, right? And then there other things, you know, the staff that help with the kids, the staff that run operations, the staff that run admin and me, right? And I'm telling you, eh, you cannot pay me nonsense money just for the sake of paying me nonsense money, just for some unscriptural reason. Yeah. If my salary is not um does not is not determined in a vacuum, there are other issues that need to be addressed. Right? Some would say even more important issues. Right? But I promise you, if I'm hungry and my bills are not paid, h you will not get the best out of me. You won't get the best out of me. Particularly if I know the money is there because you're trying to achieve some. They're trying to keep me modest. Who made you God? That is your job to keep me modest. Wow. No, absolutely not. Seeing the Lord has prospered my way, hinder me not. Right. Can the church fulfill its obligations? Yes. Then let them pay me what is fair. And the way that we do it, what do they pay pastors, right? What do they pay companies that generate this amount of revenue? Mhm. that have this kind of qualifications that do this amount of work. What is the prevailing wage and then what can we afford? Because if you look at the prevailing wage, a lot of pastors are underpaid. Yeah. I was underpaid for years. That is actually a stat. That that's a that's a stat. Do you know why pastors commit suicide a lot? Wow. Can I tell you why? Why? Because they're underpaid and underlod. Wow. That's tough. I can take no payment if I take love. The people who won't pay you well are the same people who will trash you. You dare not make one mistake. Make one mistake. Wow. They are the first people to bring you down. At least before you bring me down, let me pay me well first. So if you if I make a mistake and you want to vilify me, at least I have not spent the last 20 years suffering for you. So I can go home and look at the paintings I have on my wall and say, "Thank you, Jesus." Yeah. is such a let's talk about the tithe. Is it scriptural? Let's talk about how churches manage money. Yeah. Is it scriptural? Mhm. Right. Let's the people that we're putting in leadership, right? But we conflate everything and many times we conflate it with from a place of ignorance and malice. Right. Um um there's a church in Houston, massive church. Somebody went and posted a video online of how he he had been a volunteer in the church for years and he needed help with his he was about to be evicted. Mhm. So he goes to the church and asks for money and they haven't gotten back to him. Mhm. And in my mind I'm like, okay, that's problematic. Mhm. Right. Why would that happen? M but I pastor a church and I know that there has to be a bureaucracy in place. Mhm. Right. Checks and balances. Anybody can walk off the street and our policy at New Covenant House. If anybody walks off the street and says they need it, we help them. Mhm. And it's because you don't know who's lying and who's telling the truth. Right. People can look like they are lying, but they might be telling the truth. You do your best to verify the story, right? But sometimes you just can't. And our default is to help anyway. Mhm. Right. But sometimes there's a long line. Right. There's a long line and you get to everybody as expeditiously as you can. If somebody needs money for an emergency and the person who's going to write the check, right, is in the Bahamas, that person has a problem. Yeah. Because if I'm writing the check, that's a problem already. Yeah, we've anticipated what the needs are. So certain checks have been written and signed. We didn't anticipate your emergency. So we tell you to wait a week. You go and post picture online that they didn't answer you. You get and of course everybody is very quick. Nobody wants to say okay so what exactly happened here? And systems sometimes they fail. Yeah. Right. Everybody, oh yeah, that that church the pastor drives this, the pastor drives that. the work that guy does, the amount of money he makes outside the church. We're doing this podcast. They are not paying me yet. But if this podcast starts paying me before my 60th birthday, they start paying you. They will pay us first. How? Why? This one is not true. But but I'm just trying to say for example, if money is coming in through the podcast, right? And everybody here is well paid and I'm and I'm being paid from this, right? And I buy a Bentley and somebody automatically assumes is because we were not able to we did that's why we didn't give them money for for rent and nobody cares to ask P where you getting money from. Mhm. If I write a book and I get money from it why should I hide the money so that you can think I'm modest? That's why people don't want to do this pastoring work. It's a tough role, man. And we've learned a lot from just this conversation. Uh it's very transformative. I think you've even changed the way that we look at like the word tithing. The concept around tithing. Mhm. Tithing is a free will is is is tithing is not by force. Yeah. You don't you you don't have to tithe. I would encourage you to acknowledge God with your substance. I would encourage you to worship God with your substance. It's easy to worship him with your lips. Yeah. Right. I would encourage you. For me, tithing is a demonstration of my faith and confidence. Giving 10% of my income, it's a lot. It adds up. There are things that I could do with that 10%. But man, God has blessed me to the point where that 10% I actually don't feel it. Mhm. Right. The peace that I have, the confidence that I have in God is more than 10%. Yeah. And and PF I would even add just given the way we kind of ended like the lessons we talked about you know the systematic and institutional needs of a church like I I'll be honest that's what really drives my giving right especially beyond tithe right and I I want to say to our audience and to people watching listening think more about that like you come to this church or you go to your church how this thing is paid for it just doesn't Yeah. Do you know how much we woke up one day in church at New Covenant House? We're in a building that's what 5 years old. We woke up one day and all the HVACs were gone. Dead. Not working or Yes. Not working. No. Just something happened and they just packed up. I know. And yours is. And do you know how much you spent in one day? Over $50,000. Unbudgeted for. And you come into the church, they screaming, "It's too hot. It's too hot. It's so hot. Right." And and then you come to church and and and and you know the walls have not been painted in years and like this place is drab man. Nobody sees those things as a virtue. Oh this church they're modest. They didn't paint their walls you know. Oh this church they're so modest. The carpet is frayed. No no nobody or oh that pastor that man of God very modest very humble. There are holes in his pants. Nobody's going to give him credit for that. They be like my God that that is so wretched. And like you said the institutional needs of the church. How is it going to be paid for? Yeah. The staff that make sure that your children have a a a powerful experience. Eh, can they use volunteers? Go and volunteer. They don't showing up. Showing up. Anyway, thank you all. We appreciate it. Like, comment, subscribe, um share it with a friend. Uh and we'll see you guys next time. Catch you next time. Peace. Unfiltered.