(0:00)Why walk away at the peak?
So, so you pastored for how many years? I did for for 8 years. 8 years. Yes. 8 years. And you walked away from it? Yes, I did. You know, I I find that I I I've never really asked you this, so I'm going to ask you in front of everybody. It is unheard of, right? That you would pastor a church. Yes. And by all metrics, successfully, Yes. you would have the kind of popularity and celebrity that you have. Yes. And instead of leveraging that, you walked away from it. Yeah. Why unfiltered?
(0:35)The 30-year brotherhood
Hey guys, uh welcome back to another episode of PF Unfiltered. My name is Fei Omaya and I am your host for today. All the other vagabons and um hooligans are not here with us. I'm hoping that we have finally fired them, but I don't trust our producer. Anyway, um they'll be back next time. But I am here and I'm here with a very special guest. Um I'm really excited that he's he's he agreed to do the episode with us. um he's been my friend for 30 something years and um the the the not the the the only you know I don't know how many of you have friends of 30 something years that are superstars whose names are household names who have been doing things from very appropriate but anyway I think I've embarrassed him enough while I is with us today. Good guy. Good guy. You when you hang out with him, you will not realize what his profile is like because he's just such a down to earth regular guy. Wagwan, glad to have you with us. Here. Thank you so much. Yeah. Looking forward to this episode where we get to ask you questions and you know I know I know a bit about you. So I'll be asking you questions that will be designed to maybe embarrass you a little bit. I'm in God's hands. My life is a dessert. Okay, let's let's go. Anyway, um glad glad to have you for real. Um like I was saying earlier, I've known uh we've known each other for a while.
(2:18)The Agura Parish trenches
We met in Auda Central Parish. Do you remember? Yeah. You remember how you remember how we met? I honestly I don't remember. Okay, I remember. Okay, I remember. Let me tell you. So, so this this he's actually looks exactly the way he was way back then. This guy just, you know, we were having we were starting uh they sent us out um from Freedom Hall uh from the Redeem Christian Church of God to go start a church with um a few other guys like maybe six or seven other people to go start a church in Agoda. Agura is in um Zul Zuler that's Lagos, Nigeria. And um I was in charge of all the dirty work, clean up, everything that needed to facilities. Yes. Facilities, ushering, all of that stuff. I think it was it was um pastor Bingo was the was the lead pastor. Shalafi was the assistant pastor. There was uh subutenant Isu. Um Livingstone is who I hear is a rare admiral now. Um there was um Fumi. Ah yeah in the choir right? Yes there was in the choir and I think there was binga binga the binga meet us later. Anyway those were the the folks who were who were who were sent out and then shah uh pastor scholah Dr. impact I hear uh uh brought me along with him and there was one day when I don't know what we're doing and you walked in, you know, and I was like, who is this guy that look like like like like he had misled or something, you know, and and and and that was it, you know. You joined us and immediately took over the the the worship, right? If I remember correctly. Yeah. What what has what has life been like since then? Well, I mean uh 30 years ago or 31 years ago, I mean quite interesting. Um I I think as we as we go on in the as we go along the our discussion today, you would hear, you know, life is is is a mix of the good, bad, and the ugly. Very interesting stories. And I think um being in Aura Parish, I mean I I look back and I and um I'm sure God himself is laughing. I'm telling you, man, like you know when when I think about some of the things that we did, right? I I I I I I'm thinking that where did we get that from? Absolutely. You know, we used to have this um
(4:49)Noise pollution & zero knowledge
loudspeakers. Oh man. Terrible sounding loudspeakers. Made emotion loudspeakers. like like these things were a a health hazard and we would intentionally place them on the on the road, right? So he's blasting the service at on the at the people on the road. Talk about noise pollution. Who cares? And and the the premise was that oh somebody will hear. Yeah. Yeah. Not one person, not one person said, "You know what? I was walking down the street and my ears were assaulted by that gentleman over there yelling at the top of his voice. Now I want to give my life to Christ." I mean those are incredible learning curve actually. Arrogance. Yeah. Absolutely. You know how the Bible talks about people who darken counsel without knowledge. Zeal with no knowledge. We had a lot of zeal man. Prayer prayer meetings. I just to talk about those speakers, you know, because they were very dei definitely they had to prepare every Monday. Oh yes. Because Oh yes. Oh yes. The the the um the membrane was always very very big on the highs and because you you never bought the original thing. How can you buying NKG mics instead of AKG mics? Oh my god. Those were those were those were days in the you know when I talk about the trenches. They have no idea what the trenches were like back and and the church was in a a a very cheap restaurant.
(6:23)Worshiping next to a trash dump
Yeah. Next to a a a trash dump. A garbage dump. Trash. Exactly. So every service place was stinking. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, I I guess I guess even to describe the place you had to use the maybe if you're the refuge as so they're just going to make that it's just around that corner there's a refuge dump. My god. You know they talk about suffering for Jesus but we didn't see it as suffering though. No no no. We're excited to be doing those things. Yeah. You know and I we moved from there to a place called Woodhouse Cafe. Yeah. Anybody who lived in Surer in Lagos would remember Woodhouse Cafe was very popular in those days street. Ab street. Yes. That's where I actually met you guys in at Oh, you miss that means you missed the you missed I missed I missed I missed I missed the good days the prelims. Yeah, by the time we got to we had kind of we're moving up. We were twed up a little bit, you know, and and I remember we would come into church on Sunday morning place would be wreaking of of urine and and cigarettes and vomit and alcohol, you know, and we we felt so cool, you know, that we were we were shaking things. I find I I find it a bit strange because I'll be leading worship and you're looking at the biggest bottle of wine. Yeah. There was a wall. You know how you you go to a bar and they've got walls of alcohol? Yeah. And that's what you're looking at when you're leading worship. Yeah. But you know, we're we're we're taking it by force. That was the slogan then. Absolutely. We take it by force. Take it by force. Yeah. Interesting times. Interesting times. And then you got married. Yeah. Married. Yeah. Um, interestingly, he married somebody who was a childhood friend, too. Yeah. Um, you've got a daughter. Yeah. Yeah. Man, time flies. Time flies. Yeah. Time flies. In those days, it was all about the kingdom, all about the gospel. How How did you end up in in in in the worship ministry? Cuz every since I've known you, that's all you've done. I've done everything. You guys were the you were the you were the elite, the worshippers. the ones who touched the throne of God. We were the cleaners and the ushers and we used to park cars. Holy police. Holy police. Yeah. I mean I mean I So I mean I I
(8:35)The 'Accidental Pastor' origin
think I I really do I didn't do any music until I gave my life to Christ which I did when I was in in university. Um so I got born again in 1988. Jesus is Lord. And yeah, and I didn't do any I didn't do any music before then because you know, of course, you grew up in in a generation where you couldn't tell your father that um you wanted to sing that what is happening. Now what is that mean that you want to see I mean you you didn't see law there you didn't see medicine or you didn't see engineering you know so I didn't even have the boldness but then I I got born again and um yeah I mean ended up attending this fellowship and I started writing songs um as a matter of fact I I mean I I did actually ask God just jokingly I was like God okay so I should join the choir right and I felt God said no no no go into publications but once in a while I would work with the choir and then maybe do special songs in in the fellowship and that's how music started for me. Uh went to serve and then after service NYC national youth service called which is a mandatory uh one year experience one year experience for graduates of colleges and universities and then um yeah and then I found myself in aenda parish and the rest is history and the rest is history. So, so I remember so bring the mic closer. They want us to bring closer. That's fine. All right. You know, he's got the singing voice, you know. You can't you can't you know you when you know people that's how you can tell people who sing they hold they put the mic like this. The rest of us want to swallow the mic. So I remember when I left Agura, right? Right. You you stayed and the name changed to Jubilee. Jubilee. Yes. And then uh pastor Fei, pastor um Kem Kem, right, was in charge of the was the parish pastor. Absolutely. And they sent us back to I ended up in Idiaba. Yeah. With Triang. Yes. And then it became Jubilee Christian Center and then it was pastor Ke then it was pastor Febaw and then you became the pastor of that church. Yeah, I did later on uh in 2010. How how did that happen? I don't know. I mean I I always I always till today I still tag myself an accidental pastor. I always vowed that I would never in fact in uh you probably don't even know
(11:04)Why I refused the international post
this in uh 2000 or 2020 one pasco called me and they said oh they wanted they sent me to Vienna by then. Yeah. Yeah. But they wanted me to I think you had left there and they wanted me they actually wanted me to to to go there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That was okay. Yes. I'd come to America. They sent me to America. Yeah. So they they called me and said, "Oh, oh, because I had a British passport. I mean, no, I remember. I actually remember actually that's actually that's you know, let me tell you something. Praise the Lord for your life. Thank God for your life." I I remember it came up in conversation. I may even have been the one that suggested you. Oh, wow. I apologize, but I I I remember it vaguely now. Okay. Yeah. Go on. Go on. So, they so they told me, oh, that um there was an opening there. They wanted me to pastor and I just said, "No chance. I want to go and pray about it was even pastor me that was trying to be wife." I said, "No, I don't but I'm not called to be a pastor." And they were just looking at me like this guy is crazy. Yeah. because anybody would have jumped at a chance. Oh yeah. To go on international missions posting. Yeah. So I told him no no no no. So that went on for many years. I never attended Bible school you know and um well fast forward to 20 of course I was assistant I was assisting pastor Fei. That was all the way from 97 and then he got transferred in 2007 and then we had another pastor pastor and I I was assisting him as well but then he had to step down in 2010. M and when that happened I mean I just found myself in front of she just says okay you know what so you're going to be the pastor now and then bank I'm sure you remember bank will be my assistant and for for the life of me I I couldn't even do any I I can't imagine bank being look the story about bank was that bank told me look the day I hear you're going to step down I'm going to resign 6 months before that time So anyway, so that's how I find myself pastoring. Interesting. You know, uh I was just transfixed in that moment and hey. Wow. But so so you pastored for how many years? I did for for eight years. Eight years. Yes. Eight years. And you walked away from it. Yes, I did. You know, I I find that I I I've never really asked you this, so I'm going to ask you in front of everybody. It is unheard of, right, that you would pastor a church. Yes. and by all metrics successfully. Yes. Right. Um you would have the kind of popularity and celebrity that you have. Yes. And instead of leveraging that you walked away from it. Yeah. Why? So like I said, I mean I I think um by becoming a pastor, like I said, it was accidental, but I think with God it wasn't. Um at the point I started pastoring church was a bit shaky. So I guess and because I'd been there for a long time I think yeah you'd been there from almost the beginning. Yeah from the beginning. So I think by being there stepping into that road helped to stabilize a whole lot of things. So so this was 2010. I started passing 2010. But by 2015
(14:31)The MTN midnight prayer strategy
or 2014 2015 in fact what happened was one night I was praying uh myself and like six guys usually pray I think it was Monday night we start we pray like 1:00 a.m. to 2 um like 2 a.m. And the reason why we're praying that mean that not because it was more spiritual we're praying because Oh you not trying to do the first or second watch. No no no no let me tell you where the witches let me tell you where we don't sleep. No, no, no. Let me tell you what we're praying. We are praying because at that point in time MTN the service provider was doing free if you within the same network you know it was free. So that's why we took advantage of so that's why we took advantage of that. So we're praying one day and I just felt God say to me boss you know that to wrap up your your time here. That was 2014 2014 2015 but they didn't let me go for like 3 years. Yeah. Yeah. You know, because I I told my pastor, she was like, "But she was like, "No way. No way." Because again, like you said, the church was doing extremely well. Yeah. It was a model. We're doing a whole lot of things differently. You very involved in in charitable work. Yeah. Char I mean charitable work. I mean that's those are that's even Yeah. charitable work even in the church and all of that.
(15:48)When God said 'Wrap it up'
We had we did something very unique with our children. I'd come to America. I'd visited one of my senior friends, Lenny Leblanc. Got to his church in Alabama and he had taken us in a tour, my wife and I, on a tour of the children's church and I saw something unique there. He said, "Look, it's a children's church that is growing the adult church." Yeah. And you know, so we we came back to Lagos and I mean maybe we replicated 5% of what we saw and Yeah. It was just a huge thing. Uh so we had done that. We had done a whole lot of things differently. So I mean even my even my professional person will come and tell me well look I'm stealing this idea you know so we did a whole lot of things that were you know like like models within the system you know so and when you look at the generation that maybe the the two primary things are money and and people and and we had that you know so I said by every metric you had money the church had money you had people had and and and in addition to that you had your own personal celebrity. Yeah. The the how the status was there. So I mean like I said so we went back and forth for like 3 years but finally after after years you get away. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean you first of all convinced me to stay I stay but after like one year I said I was going now said oh okay I mean yeah and you know how Jubilee was you know the people who just love God but they were not interested in things like coordination and all of that stuff. So and so the guy banky he had already said he's going so he had resigned. Yeah. So the guy who took over from me was a was a deacon right and this was I was even a pastor. Yeah. And I was an assistant. I had no business being but they just they made me I guess because of my status and all of that. So we fought that because I wanted to hand over to my assistant. So we went back and forth then she finally agreed and then so when she agreed I said okay I'll stay in transition with the guy for like seven months you know. So I stepped down February 2018. I didn't know how to do that. They said, "Oh, you have to stay. I still have to stay as soon as pos." How did you feel when you left? When you finally left, how did when I left? Honestly, I thought I was going to miss it. I didn't even miss it. You didn't miss it at all. Are you serious? I'm not kidding. I didn't. Not once. I thought I was going to like have withdrawal symptoms and Yeah. Nothing. But But you know, I'm not surprised, right, that you didn't miss it because you've never really pastored by the book. No, no, no, no. Right. You you've always pastored as you are. Yeah. You get and I'm not saying that to gas you up or to or to you know you've always been that guy who what you see is what you get. Yeah. Right. You're not a you're not an ostentatious person. You don't want to oppress and suppress people. Yeah. Do they used to call you daddy? our daddy or our our papa or man of God when I think I think we put that those kind of rules down please we one of we don't do that here yeah you know one of one of the one of the things one of the reasons why myself and pastor get along so well is because we think alike on so many things you know I remember the first service we had um then it was Jesus house and I was introducing myself to the folks who had come and I said to them u my name is Femayo you can call me Fei You can call me Fe M. And but I understand that culturally that may be a challenge for some of you. So you can call me Pastor Fe. I'd rather you call me PF because I'm not here to to lord it over you. And some of the older people who were in the congre who were in the service that day. They had a problem with it. They called me aside and said, "You're you're asking to be disrespected. You know, you're asking to be to be brought low." Yeah. And I said, if I am disrespected, the person who is disrespecting me is the one with the problem. Absolutely. I'm not the one with the problem by trying to be all things to all men for the sake of the gospel. Yeah. There's a song you wrote and I remembered it because, you know, we're talking about those first days at Jesus house. I remember I had contacted you cuz when we started the church, I was the I was the I didn't lead worship, but I was the instrumentalist. Okay. And you know me and music. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember. Yeah, I remember we had gotten we had gotten a software. I remember Ableton Live. Yes. And and and we had a MIDI system and I I would run the tracks, you know. So I I played the music on the computer in quotes. It was just I pressed the button and I used, you know, a pedal. And that song is is is iconic in in in Christian culture, Christian community in Nigeria. Yeah. And I think it has it carried over even um across the oceans and that's that. Yes. Okay. So what is the story behind that song? Why what what were you was it like you were sleeping and the Holy Spirit said today oh what what happened like because anywhere you go and they say today oh everybody it's like there's something that just touches your soul from from inside. Yeah. So I mean it's um so let me backtrack to something that happened to my family and I um in 1987. So I mean um we my parents worked on campus in the University of Ephair that's in uh western part of western part of Nigeria and um yeah so there were there were university staff so naturally we stayed in in the university quarters and um one day a Tuesday it was a Tuesday November 17 I'd gone for my lectures uh chemical engineering class at 7:00 a.m. And I came back at 9:00 a.m. and our house was completely burnt down. I'm sorry. What? Our house was completely burnt down. No, no, no, no, no. You're kidding. No kidding. So, yeah. The only thing we had left was You didn't have insurance? Well, no. I mean, no insurance. Okay. Sorry, I forgot that. We're not We're not This was 1987. Yeah. E. So, no insurance. The only thing I had left was what I was wearing. I mean, my parents had the great fortune of having a very large family, six children, five boys and one girl. And so, all we had left was what we wear and maybe the the cars that my parents drove to work. And of course, at that point in time, weren't born again Christians as we were go to church three times a year. And I'll say we were actually into very fetish things and and almost close to to being occultic, you know. And um anyway, fast forward a year after I I got born again. And um years after I was coming back to see my parents um just to say hello to them. Then I was walking in Lagos and I was at the back of this car just thinking about what had happened years ago. And yeah, so and and the words of this song just came as a vow to God telling him that look, no matter what I face, I'll praise you Lord. When troubles come my way, I will praise the Lord. So that that song was actually hinged on that experience that look no matter what I face um praise the Lord of course um Nigerians being Nigerians uh there's been very revised many seriously no I I I remember so so I know the story right that you just told our our folks when I started to hear people singing that song and they had changed taken ads when trouble come my way. I was offended. I was offended because I knew the story behind it. I knew the person who had written the song. I knew the sincerity with which we wrote that song. I knew the impact that song has has had on me and on I mean I'm talking about how many years later I was still trying to make sure that we were singing that song in the church I pastored. Yeah. Right. So when they now revised it and turned it into when bless when success comes my way right I was offended but my offense to be very honest with you was not based on knowledge right it was based on my relationship with you right I felt it was I felt it was being it was disrespectful I didn't realize at the time how dangerous it was to our faith that we will take away when troubles come my way, right? Because I feel like one of the problems with modern day Christianity, particularly the Christianity that comes from America and has gotten into Africa, right? Not the one from England. The one from England is a bit more austere. Yeah. And a bit more conservative. More conservative. A bit closer. Yeah. To the to the Bible. More centered. Yeah. A bit more centered than than what we get from America. the celebrity gospel, the the materialism and all of that stuff. Um, I'm not trying to say only bad things come from America. Absolutely not. It's been it's been amazing. I mean, I'm in America and I'm blessed by being in America. But I feel like that gospel is problematic because it does not prepare us for life. Mhm. The Bible says in this world you will have trouble. Yeah. So that tells you that troubles are inevitable and troubles are not necessarily um the Bible says count it all joy right when you face troubles. Yeah. Because they are working a far greater weight of glory for you. Yes. Right. So when you when you omit those kinds of things you give people the impression that when you have troubles there's something wrong with you. Yeah. That's not true, right? It's that you're burying your head in the sand and people don't know how to deal with it. That song said, "When trouble comes my way, I will praise the Lord." Yeah. We turned into turned it into, "When success comes my way, I will praise the Lord." So, when trouble comes my way, what do I do? What do I do? Yeah. How did you feel when you heard that? I have to tell you, I wasn't disappointed. I actually found it a bit humorous because I looked at everybody I think it's denial. Um because whether you sing when trouble comes my way the Bible said in this world in this world I mean here you are of course at that point in time I'm I'm I'm leaving Nigeria. I go to Nigeria a lot sing when success comes my way. One bus is going to join me on the road. It has nothing to do with it has nothing to do with what song you're singing. They face trouble every day. Yeah. That's the reality. It's a constant. Yeah. But people don't know how to deal with trouble. They they they see trouble as a it has to be demonic attack or b God is not happy with me. Right? Because it's it's those kinds of things, right? Create a performancebased relationship with God. It's like blessings are like a carrot. Yeah. Transactional. Yes. Very transactional Christianity. And I'm I am very frustrated with transactional Christianity because I realize that the problem with transactional Christianity, right, is that it brings you to a place where if you are honest, you will lose hope. If you're really honest about your faith, you will lose your faith. And a lot of people are not. A lot of people get saved in quote because they've been told if you give your life to Christ you get a beautiful wife, a nice car, a great house, a fantastic job, two kids. Yeah. Boy and girl. Boy and girl. Yeah. You know, all of them both of them six or twins. Boy and girl. Both of them 6' tall. You know, they'll be the, you know, best kids in their class. You'll be immune from every sickness, every disease. you know your life will just be a bed of roses. There will be no pain, no sorrow, nothing right that's and when that doesn't happen we we try to we try to explain it we know better than to blame God we will never say well it is God's fault that you haven't gotten a job we we we dare not our home training will not permit us and you know the fear of the Lord will not permit us so the problem is always with you be struck be struck down. So the problem is always you. You are the problem. There's something you're doing or there's something you're not doing. And if you have the presence of mind to do an audit of your life, check your habits, check your relationships, check, you know, all of those things. Are you praying? And then yes, I'm praying. Then the question is, how often are you praying every day? How many hours are you praying? Eventually, we're going to find something you're not doing. Yeah. But then if you go through that process long enough and you check all the boxes and you can't find anything wrong with yourself and the problem still persists, then it has to be a curse. So you go around breaking curses. Mhm. Then when you're done breaking all the curses, it has to be an ancestral sin. Mhm. Your great-grandfather was a slave trader. his great-grandfather before him, a man you don't know. Yeah. Because the Bible says God visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the Yeah. Um how many generations? Yes. For generations. Right. Right. So you you you get to a point where you're going to say to yourself, if God is so powerful and he loves me so much, I got to a point where I said clearly the blood of Jesus is not enough. We need some extra. Yes. We need some extra oomph. The blood of Jesus is insufficient to pay for sin, right? Because if it was sufficient and if the sacrifice was offered once and for all, Yeah. then all of this should not be happening to me. Yeah. Because I had been taught that if this is happening, there's sin somewhere. Right. And that's that's extremely problematic because we know now that when Jesus died, he redeemed us from the curse of the law of the law. Right? We know that the Bible says God visits the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generation. But he also says that under the new covenant, right, the children's teeth will no longer be set on edge by the grapes the fathers have eaten, but it is the soul that sins that shall die. Yeah. Right. We we know all of these things. We know that the Bible says that um and we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him and are called according to his purpose. We know these things. We know that the Bible says in this world you will have challenges and count it all joy. Right? But we don't talk about those things. We don't teach people to count it all joy when you're going through stuff. We send them on a guilt trip and eventually they get to the end of that trip and this thing doesn't work. It doesn't work. Yeah. Because I'm still going through stuff and I've done every single thing you've told me. Yeah. I remember I heard a man of God say one time that if you fast for 3 days, God will sort your problems. If you fast for 7 days, you will enter into abundance. If you fast for 14 days, you'll be in the overflow. If you fast for 21 days, you know, by the time you fast for 40 days, you and Jesus are high-fiving still. And and I did all of those things. That was how we were raised. We prayed for hours. Ministry works. Oh my god. We prayed for hours. We prayed in tongues for hours. I went to church every Sunday morning from a night vigil. Saturday night. We had a night vigil. Every Saturday night, I my wife would bring my clothes to church cuz I couldn't go home to church for Sunday morning. I fasted 3 days, 7 days, 14 days, 21 days, 40 days, 75 days, 125 days. All I did all I remember when we were at Agura central at Agura we had to dig a well when um I think it was Reverend Jola was coming to the church and the facilities were not up to How well is he though? Are you serious? Oh yes. Every time I see that well I remember you. Ah I dug that well man. Jesus is Lord. My God. Are you still there? He's still there. They're still there. Yeah we dug that well. It took us It was It was a nightmare. It was a nightmare to dig and I I was responsible for it. We're building toilets. Yeah. And I was responsible for all that stuff. I was fasting throughout that construction process. And the reason why I was fasting was because the man of God was coming and I did not want to miss my blessing. And I remember the day Reverend Joola came, I was I was emaciated from the fast. I was exhausted from the physical work. And the man prayed for us. And I remember insisting that all the boys that had worked with me should come and kneel down and be prayed for. And he prayed for us and nothing happened. Not a thing happened. I went away thinking to myself, "God hates me. But that was not true. God doesn't hate me. I don't know if God answered those prayers. But at that moment, what I was expecting is not what I got because that is not what I had been taught. I had been taught if you fast for 7 days. After a while, can I be honest with you? I I stopped expecting anything from God. And that is the problem with the transactional gospel. Eventually, God stops indulging you, you know, he stops playing those games with you. Yeah. It's like, grow up. Grow up. Understand. Understand. Read your Bible. Yeah. So, when at the top, we're teaching people when blessings come my way, I will praise the Lord. When troubles come your way, what are you going to do? Are you going to be like Job? Cause God and die. Cause God and die. Yeah. Right. And this is the struggle I have with the church, particularly the church in Nigeria, because we have become experts at the prosperity gospel. Absolutely. And we use big big words. We talk about altars and the third watch and the fourth watch. You get it? You know, we we talk about about about levels of levels of manifestation. You know, I I heard a man of God, and I'm going to say this, I will get into trouble, but who cares? Tell a musician. The musician is playing. The man of God comes and stops the music and said, "Find me in the spirit. Find you in the spirit. You are not in the spirit. You are here in the physical. If you were in the spirit, you're a dead man." Say, say, "Find me in the spirit." And when I see that you are forming the spirit, then we I'm like, are you are you are we comedians? Who is finding you in the spirit? But you and I know that that's not a new that's not a new phenomenon. I mean, these are things that have be even how even 30 years ago. Yeah, but how do you how do you deal with how do you deal with that? Because see, I'm removed from it. I'm here. Nobody's telling anybody to find them in the spirit or the one or the or the or the brother that they summoning spirits. Oh my god. like what are we talking about? These are things that are not in this in the Bible. How are we extrapolating? I I I I think in that instance for in for instance it's somebody has a personal preference. That he's not able to articulate articulate. I like I like maybe he wanted some aba piano. Yeah. That or maybe some strings and some parts you know because Yeah. And then you're not able to articulate that. I mean maybe you're not I mean yeah musically and then yeah you know say and and but but see the problem with that though is this right? Then the poor guy who cannot find anybody in the spirit goes home and he's like why am I wasting my time with this Christianity I fasted for 40 days I fasted for half of the year and I can't find anybody in the spirit. That kind of scenario is like you're in church and sound and sound is whack. It's not sound is whack not because you don't have the right equipment but because you have the wrong person behind the desk and then sound is whack. You have feedback and then you're busy binding the devil. Yeah. Yeah. What I usually say to people is like even devil is going up to God and say it's not me. It's not me. I don't know about it. I don't I didn't touch anything. And God is saying to don't mind them. Don't mind them. What is simply at play is a lack of understanding. Yeah. Yeah. Because being behind the desk there is not is not a prayer warrior function. No, it's it's it's technical. And you know the interesting thing is this, right? All those years in Agura. By the way, you didn't mention this. Those speakers I'm the one that purchased them. I decided, let me just confess. But but you know, but you know those days were those days were days of absolute. I'm I'm I'm not even sure. I'm sure you had left. Mhm. You know because I mean of course choir was a disaster. Oh my god. It's still one of the things I tell people today that look Yeah. because every Sunday I'm sure you had left by that time. Every Sunday pastor Ke after we had finished ministry. I don't even know why you can call it ministry. I think I finished singing. Pastor Ke just say please can you hear me straight for this people? Yeah. No I was there. I was there. I was there and and and and the problem was that it wasn't those kinds of things. Right. When I think about it now, right, when I came to when we started New Covenant House, Jesus house at the time, I I understood that feedback is caused by if you put the the the speakers in a particular place and the microphone microphone Yeah. it feeds back, hence feedback. Yeah. Right. It's feeding they're feeding each other. So you either needed equipment that was immune to that and had just somewhat moved the sound in such a way that you could actually stand in front of the speaker with the microphone. Yeah. And there won't be any feedback and there won't be any feedback or you just put the speakers in front of Exactly. of the of the and stand behind them. Yeah. But you know as the pastor you have to hear yourself. So you put the speakers behind you and you be blaming the demon that is disturbing the a guy and and you know and that's church. Yeah. And because we are such a a society that is very we're we're very subservient to authority. Yeah. You might even see, you might even see and know what is wrong. But the Fantry or the Bonest even approve and say that you are the one causing this problem by your positioning. You dare not go they born you were. Oh my god, man. You're reminding me of some of some of some of some times, you know. Ah, I remember those night videos, man. Ah, I don't know whether you were you know your brother. I remember D was there. Yeah. You know when we had those videos we went past we call those videos and you know maybe we do by time we do start at 10 and we go to 12 drink. Yeah. Yeah. We now brought one guy from one ministry I think was from re minry the guy we pray from 10 p.m. till 6 a.m. And then the guy at 5 would still say I go to pray. I left I had left. I had left. No no no thank you. I had left. But I didn't leave for better. I didn't leave. I didn't go to paradise. I went to a different version. I said, "What?" You know, I I believe that there there's a place there's a place for for prayer like that, right? When when the burden, when the burden is there, when the burden is there, when the Holy Spirit is leading you, but when you have a log book of how many hours you've prayed, right, a tithe book, Yeah. of how much you've tithed. And when you go before God, you come with your log book and say, "Lord, I have prayed 6 hours a spent x amount on tithe. Oh yeah, bless me." And God is like, "All of your righteousness is like a filthy rag." Want to be mathematical with God. How can you when it is our positioning in Christ, if you abide in me, Yeah. my words abide in you. Yeah. You will ask God for whatever you want. You will bear fruit and your fruit will remain. When the most powerful prayers in scripture, I have not seen any prayer that lasted every single time. When they called down fire from heaven, Mhm. it was let fire. Mhm. There's a place for long prayer. There's a place for Daniel prayed for 21 days. remained in a place of prayer. The prophet would put his head between his knees and pray and send his servant to go and check. So there's there's a place for it. But when we make it the only way Yeah. If you are not suffering Yeah. If you have if you are not bleeding, God is not impressed. And that becomes the gospel. and and and you know we're not suffering is not hard for us. We're used to it. We're used to it. Yeah. Our the gods that our ancestors served were very demanding and wicked gods. They required it. They required constant sacrificing. So when we came to to Christ, yeah, we it's not hard for us. Yeah. I mean the easier I mean is easy then it can't be God. The truth of the matter is that if you even as a pastor when you try to preach to make to to propagate an easy gospel just going to look at you like because they call it watered down. This one doesn't know what you've watered it down. They'll say it in my language. Can you imagine? Meanwhile, Jesus Christ said Jesus Christ said come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden. Yeah. And I will give you rest. Learn from me. Yeah. Yeah. My yoke is easy and my burden is light. I keep telling people I say if your Christianity is not easy and is not light, who are you yolked to? If you are yolked to Christ, eh, you should be carrying his burden. Yeah. And carrying his yoke and he said it is easy and it is light. They will tell you h you don't know you don't know the world. They play. They play. They say they play. Say, "Woe to them that are at ease in Zion." Be sober. Be vigilant. You're laughing. Be laughing. We had a We had a Oh my god. We had a guy who used to run the prayer ministry, right? If you are praying and your hand is in your pocket, h you you are praying to God and you are pocketing. You are praying to God and you are pocketing. He will stop the prayer meeting and lambast you. Yeah, you are praying to God. Your hand is in your pocket. Which God are you praying to? Is God your mates? I like oh my god. You know, you know we have all those all those in fact it was because myself and Buff were talking about these things. Just just I'm sorry. Your yourself who? Myself and Bit. You see, you just drop names yourself and Buffett because we are at you know myself and um what's his name? Um TD was joking about all this lines you know that we propagate like oh like now once it starts get to September October. Ah if you want to see the end of 2025 let your amen sound like thunder like thunder. Come on my voice no sound. Ah my guy my guy just said I I have learned manipulative manipulative statements and and and it's unfortunate because many abandon the faith. Yeah. Because if you come to it with sincerity, right? And you're bold enough to be honest with yourself. Yeah. You walk away from it. Religion has a form of godliness, but it has no power. And a lot of what we see is religion. more than I I tell people that let me tell you religion has learned to wear a suit then after a while they realized that suit was too religious so he started wearing jeans so a lot of religion now jeans and t-shirt religion now the music is mixed with our piano but it's still religion because religion is not the style it's the message it's not the vibe it's not the vibe it's the message and if the message is Moses If the message is works then we have to reject it because the Bible calls it a body of death. He calls it a ministry of death. Right. And what we see is that that ministry it's killing people. Yeah. That is why you have a country that has the how many denominations have the largest arenas in the world in Nigeria? Yeah. The the the one that is going to be the biggest. There are buildings in Nigeria. Absolutely. The current biggest is in Nigeria. Right there. We have churches on every street. Some buildings have multiple churches. If you have like a three or four story building on every floor. Yeah. And yet let's talk about streets. And yet yet that country is suffering under the weight of human discipline of human profleacy. And every day we're praying. Every day we're praying. The question is, yeah, we're praying. The question is, what are we praying about? Because we're not What's the content? What's the content of our prayer? Because our prayer is for God to give us money. Yeah. What's the content of our prayer? So, if I pray for God to give me money and God does not give me and then a contract passes in front of me. Yeah. Money. Maybe it's God that passed the contract in front of me. And we have such dubious ethical standards. Absolutely. That taking the money is not a problem. And I come and pay tithe in church and the pastor will collect it knowing that my salary is not up to my tithe. Absolutely. Yeah. And what do I do for a living? I'm a businessman. No, you're a civil servant. What I what I even say what I even say I mean concerning our country Nigeria is I'm not even sure whether the church is ready for a righteous leader. Right? Because if you have a righteous leader, a lot of a lot of churches thrive on illicit funds. Of course. Of course. Yeah. It's inevitable. So the kind of monies that are entering the churches are not going to enter anymore. It's inevitable. It's inevitable because think about it, right? Where is all that money coming from? How do churches have so much money? Yeah. But the government does not have any money. How are churches building these arenas but the governments cannot pay salaries? Meanwhile, the vast majority of people work for the government. So, there's a leak somewhere. Yeah. The money, the government money is leaking somewhere. And some of it, not all of it, some of it is entering the churches clearly. Yeah. Right. But that's acceptable in religion. That's acceptable in religion. But if we are at Zion where we understand that is the spirits of just men made perfect where we understand that we are transformed as we behold him. I believe sincerely that we will see a movement by the power of the Holy Spirit to a church that is a reflection of Christ. What we see now is not a reflection of Christ. Yeah. It is it is a a prosperity gospel that in many ways appears like a pyramid scheme. The people at the top are blessed by it. If I tell everybody give and it will come back to you. I give a testimony of how I gave up. I'm the one at the top. Everybody's giving to me. Absolutely. Yeah. Everybody's giving to me. Yeah. The person at the bottom, nobody's giving him anything. M I read one church's um devotional daily devotional and they said if you give to your brother Christian brother God will bless you 30fold. If you give to your pastor God will bless you 60fold. And if you give to the um to the head of the denomination God will bless you 100fold. That is doctrine. Yeah, that is doc. Yeah, man. The the whole lot of things all these things have been. I'm sure you've heard about the the ones who are saying never trust the never trust the fate of the what's I mean of the poor man. Oh, somebody I heard somebody say that Jesus does not like poor people. Yeah. That he never hung out with poor people. He never hung. He went to Lazarus's house and Lazarus sister's house. No, that they were rich. He hates poverty and hates poor people. You hear that? You hear that kind of gospel? I I I I I just wonder. So why how will the society get better? When you say the church is not ready for a righteous leader, the righteous leader is the product of the society. And if there's no righteousness, Yeah. right, our leaders will our leaders will always reflect us. Mhm. So if we keep seeing thieves, we are thieves. Yeah. If our children are growing up to be thieves, we are the one that is teaching them how to steal. So we need to stop crying. and just accept that you know what we need to change some things. And honestly, I think that the church has to start that by saying it is not about how much money you have. When troubles come your way, be okay. Godliness with contentment. I I think that's the key word there. Contentment. You know, we don't we don't we don't really hop on contentment. We can't You know, we can't because if if you tell people to be content, then there's no need for them to to do sacrificial giving. Yeah. They have to be you have to stir up their hunger for more. Yeah. You have to tell them all the things they can get if they give. You tell them to be content. So why are they giving you their tithing on top of their ties? Why are they triple tithing? M and then all the other stuff the suppress fruit the firstborn redemption of the firstborn the by force offering the taking it by force are to the first I did that thing I did it I did it I'm telling you and that's part of why I'm upset I did h they did the they did the calculation they did the exchange rate for me I paid the the fee in in dollars because I didn't have shekels first don't enter trouble ah more. I did it. I I see I did redemption of the firstborn and then you know I I think my my my parents had me before they got married officially. Okay. So I had to do the redemption of the other one the bastard tooh the cost of the bastard and then my mother is from Los city you know Lego city people they like jolof they they like jolie then I did maybe there and you know people they have that masquerade they do. So I did redemption from your spirit and my father is from hik and you know kitty people they can do some things. I did that one too you know par adventure. My grandfather is a policeman. I did I did deliverance left right and center man. Last question I want to ask you. Yes please. You've transitioned. What advice would you give to people who are transitioning into a different season? Yeah. So I one of the things I want to tell anybody even before you transition um which was why I mean I was so glad when I saw you over the weekend you were baking is um you know one day I was in church and somebody was leading one of the worshippers was leading the song bread of heaven send for me many things you were on earth and as she was singing that song I just felt the Holy Spirit ask me a question okay many things I was on earth how many things are M you know um we're capable of so much. Yeah. You know and I think you know talking about pastors sometimes one of the reasons why a lot of people I think don't want to leave or quit the stage early. They can't do anything else because yeah they really can't do anything. They can't do anything else and they they don't even know how their life is going to turn out when they leave that stage king to it. um beyond their expiration. I remember when I yeah well I remember when I was going to leave I I was asking a couple of people questions and I actually I went to one of the people I went to was um Dr. Sadium and I was just telling him about my plans and everything you know and he said something to me that totally set me free. He talked about uh John Maxwell who used to be a pastor but then you know transition into what he's doing and he said the Maxwell told him that look when that was happen when he was about to do that people of course there was an uproar and everything but that what people didn't realize was that pastoring was my first calling but it's not my highest calling. Amen. And honestly that's that set me free. So if you're looking at transitioning, don't ever think that what you do right now is the greatest thing that you could ever be. You know, there's so much more. There's so much more ahead. And I think people should just open their their mind, you know, to that possibility that everything that God wants you to do doesn't start and end with where you are right now. There's so much more that lies out there. Amen. That that is that's a word for me that that is so profound. your first calling is not necessarily your greatest calling. Yeah, that that that's that's that's profound. Thank you, W. You've had a lot of we've had a lot of fun tonight. Um but that last thing you said, right, I think is is for me it's it's um is my take away from this. So, if you've been listening to us or watching this evening, we've we've we've had a lot of, you know, fun and laughter. But the few things that pastor Ali has said that I think are really important. You know, the idea that when you have troubles, you are able to rise above them by praising God because God is glorified even when we have trouble. Yeah. And this thing he just said about transition, I think it's really profound. But anyway, we got to go now. Our producers are apoplelectic. We've been having too much fun. Um, if you I would encourage you, you know, uh, to go check Pastor Wally out if you don't know him. I'm sure you do, but if you don't, um, his website is wleaden.com. His, um, social media handle is wle. Um, he's very easy to find. Very, very easy. Just type wallally. It will pull him up. Even your Google search will will pull him up. the algorithm works for him. Yeah. Um but you know, Wally, thank you so much. This has been this has been amazing. Um thank you for joining us. And guys, don't forget uh share this with your friends, hit the like button, subscribe, and um we'll see you at our next episode. And I heard that the guys will be back. Don't tell them I call them names. I love those guys dearly. Dearly, they are my people. All right, guys. Take care. Thank you. Bye. Unfiltered. [Music]