(0:00)The Reality of Loss and Grief
hey good morning guys uh we're recording another episode of the podcast today it's going to be really really good um you know we we like to have fun we like to have a good laugh I say some crazy things sometimes not too often but every once in a while uh this morning we've got a a really good friend of mine he's he's with us all the way I'll let his accent tell you where he's from or he might tell you himself but anyway we've got my friend in in in town today so I wanted to talk with him I'm going to be doing all the I'm going to be the one asking the questions Shu and tund are not here today I don't know where those two are maybe they at the party somewhere or or something but I'm going to be asking questions I'm going to be asking L questions and one of the things that we're going to talk about today is our experience with loss um with grief the loss of people that are there to us I know some of you are going through this right now um some of you have been through it and some of you will go through it it's not a curse it's just the reality of life um Luke and I will talk a little bit about that um as we proceed in in this episode so sit down relax uh stay tuned unfilter so uh it's so good to be back we're switching things up a little bit I'm going to host this morning and um we've got with us uh a wonderful wonderful wonderful guy a good friend of ours and um I'm going to be asking him questions it's kind it's kind of refreshing to be in this position usually I'm the one being being asked the questions but uh it's I'm really excited about this opportunity yeah so I can mess around with you a little bit Like These Guys these guys mess around with me so we've got with us uh a great man of God by the name of Luke brenlin I will not do any introduction I'll just let him introduce himself so Luke tell
(1:45)Meet Luke: From England to the World
us a little bit about you okay yeah well first of all may I say thank you thanks for having me you're welcome I have been tuning into to your podcast Since You released it earlier this year and I have to say just the way PF you unpack very difficult questions and make them simpler uh more easy to understand is a real gift thank you thank you you guys you guys don't appreciate me enough honestly particularly tund and Shu they they they okay don't worry please continue don't worry we can keep going but I I've really enjoyed it and got a lot out of it so to be a part of it today uh is is a huge honor and so I I'm over from England I live in a city called norch which is about two hours from London I'm married to Lisa and uh we have two children on on Earth I'm going to go into the loss of my other child in a bit but I have two daughters aged seven and four Laya and Lucille and they're our Miracle children okay and so they're at home I'm often on the road I teach and preach all over the world and uh I've been doing that now I've been preaching for 18 or 19 years but fulltime on the road I'm now into my ninth year so uh yeah it's been quite the Advent that sounds like fun it's not as glamorous as what everyone thinks oh yeah you know you know yourself having um been in Ministry for a long time longer than me I would suggest even though you look young thank you thank you thank you I'm just going to lay I really wish Shu and T were here to hear this because those guys do not give me any breathing room so please go on well I'm glad I can be here to to lift your spirit today thank you but no so it's it's taken me Here There and Everywhere it's not easy um being away from family but but I do feel very blessed to do what I do awesome awesome so so quick question right how how did you get your start in Ministry and what kind of what what brought you to Ministry and how did it start well I I grew up in a Christian
(3:48)Growing Up Under Law and Grace
home okay in fact my parents were both police officers and pastors really so me I've got a younger brother and um most of us most people would say that's pretty tough because you're under both the law and Grace you know so there was no escaping any trouble for me and my brother um so but we grew up in a in a good home but my dream if I'm being honest was to play professional soccer okay um and I was very fortunate as I went through my teenage years I got a bit better and a bit better and at 17 years old I was taken on by a pro club in England uh which one it's a smaller Club you I don't think anyone would know it they're not in existence anymore so I won't say it but they tell us us oh okay well well that's kind of like where Arsenal is right now right definitely Arsenal and Chelsea too um and so I went there I left home at 17 uh but I got into the wrong crowd you know
(4:47)My Pro Football Dream Explained
I uh first time away from home and you're playing football fulltime you're getting into a new environment yeah H I was there for a year and then I went and played semi-professional for a couple of years as well well and by that time I'd walked away from my faith and uh I was in a bit of a mess someone invited me back to church when I was 20 years old and I made a recommitment to Christ that night yeah and I didn't know what I was going to do with my life PF all up to then has been football or or soccer you say here in the US and I had no idea what was next and actually it became quite frustrating cuz I resigned from my football club I moved back home to be with my parents right and I started again right and I spent the next 10 months praying every day for some sort of direction right and I had no idea one night I was at a church service and I know this story is going to sound a little out there but but this is what happened I was drawn to a particular person sitting on the back row all night all night and after the service he came up to me and he asked me he didn't I didn't know him I'd never seen him before and he said what do you want to do with your life oh wow that was the first question he asked me and so I said
(6:05)The Back Row Angel Encounter
well I've been praying for 10 months and I haven't heard anything he said I'm going to pray for you God's going to speak to you and you're going to know I said okay yeah I was like who is this who is this guy uh anyway he he he prayed for me and within 30 seconds of the prayer I heard two things that I was going to leave the country and preach the gospel oh wow so we stopped praying he said did you get did you get a word I said yes I did and I told him he said go and do it now I later found out that that man was not sitting in that seat no one else saw him that whole night oh wow so I know it sounds out there but but but that was everyone but that's how God works right you know in in in in ways that we don't imagine you know and there are many exper people have had so many experiences with with angels with God you know that defy the way that we usually think about things so so I'm not surprised that you had that kind of experience well it it was what I needed yeah um so I then thought okay I'm going to leave the country and preach the gospel up until then I'd been all football um but I had a friend that was in Bible College in Sydney Australia okay and he had come back just come back and he was very different I could see you know God had done a great work in him and uh he he's he's my pastor now actually and uh back in England and I thought if God could work such a miracle in his life then then he could do the same for me right so I thought right I'll go back to football I'll save I'll save up some money and I'll I'll look to go within the next six months okay and that's what I did and uh we applied I
(7:48)The Moment I Turned Down the Pro Deal
got in the week before I was to go I had to Australia to Australia yeah in Sydney I was asked by another professional Club whether I would go and try with them cuz I was playing well and uh I turned it down and I said no God's called me to Bible College yeah you turned that down yes so wait wait wait let me get this right you spent from 17 to 20 you're playing football right paid for football paid through football and then a week before you go to Bible school yes right you get an invitation to try out for another football team another the professional team professional football team and you actually turned it down I turned it down really yes what was it was it was it a hard decision or did you just like nah this is not for me no I it wasn't hard because I truly felt in my heart after that encounter that night that that God had something greater for me and although I loved scoring goals I was a what they call a striker yeah played up front I had this this overwhelming sense within that that that I was going to gain more fulfillment out of helping people find Christ than scoring a goal and that was very very very prevalent in in my mind right so yeah I turned it down and uh and and I got a ticket and I an airline ticket and off I went and I did two years in Bible College within the first few months uh
(9:12)Hillsong College and First Sermons
some of the leadership at the church right pulled me to one side what church was that Hillsong Hillsong Church yeah in uh Sydney Australia okay what year was this 2006 who was the lead Pastor then the lead Pastor was Brian Houston ah time that's awesome that's what I was telling yeah Brian Houston and so and he had a college team that ran the college right and a couple of the key leaders in in the Bible College spoke to me within within I was there four or five months right and they felt there was a gift on my life to communicate yeah now I hadn't said anything about my Encounter With An Angel the year before and I said okay and they started to get me involved within the um sort of the college student body doing a few more Little Talks right and it grew and grew from there and at the end of that year I preached my first sermon and I was 22 years old really and uh yeah and four people gave their hearts to Christ wow and so then I went back for second year of college and they made me a head student head boy there was 12 of us kind of like manyi disciples shall we say that carried a little more responsibility and I had an incredible uh second year at bible college moved back home and uh was a youth Pastor for 3 years what church uh it was a it was a smaller Church in England at the time um one that is still going now but I I'm not with them now but I was there uh for three years and in that time I started to get invitations to preach around the UK and Europe and things just things just started moving um in fact I I went to preach in the Netherlands okay and this is how it really opened up for me I went over and did it for a a student who I'd studied with in Australia who'd come back to Holland and and he asked me to go and speak I went and spoke we saw many people get saved okay and there were some other students from Bible College that had come to hear me right they then said oh would you come to our church would you come to our church right and one said my brother runs a very large Ministry in Amsterdam oh maybe one day you can speak for him I said sure well check this out two weeks later another guy from America was meant to be speaking at this big big Youth
(11:30)The 'Luke Replaced Luke' Miracle
Ministry they were running around a thousand students at the time okay that's that's big for Europe very big that was huge and this guy Luke had advertised him coming right he couldn't make it okay I'd never met them i' and I'd been in the country two weeks PR and then I received an email wow Luke we advertised a guy called Luke coming from America right he can't make it right my brother heard you the other week we've listened to the the it was probably a CD back then would you want to come yeah I went and again we saw many young people get saved right and really from there Luke replaced Luke Luke replaced Luke so they probably didn't have to do a lot more advertising just that's right and we looked a little similar as well actually um but from there things really started to grow um after that after 3 years youth pastoring I was then invited on to staff I received a phone call from a man called Gary Clark who was the the lead pastor of Hillsong London at that time he'd been hearing a little bit about what I was doing I was ready for a change in in in the in the church that I was then a part of and it felt right so I I I went down and uh and then I started working for for Hillsong London oh really that's interesting so so you okay so when you moved to Hillsong London uhhuh did you feel like you were deviating from the call to travel yeah I I I did a little bit but at the same time it felt like the right thing and they I didn't know exactly what my role was going to be I met with Gary they were running a social justice project that they wanted me to help lead and church was growing and and they knew I had a gift to communicate and he wanted me to be a part of the the speaking and teaching team right um so I was on stuff around five and a half years wow that's that's a while the church was was really growing how how big did Hillsong get then well Hillsong London probably if you include the four or five campuses plus our main one where I was based for
(13:40)Choosing Faith Over Predictable Paths
several years close to around 10,000 people 10,000 people in London is equivalent of like 40,000 in America yeah that's a lot for Europe definitely would have been one of the larger churches probably the largest I can't imagine a church larg you know what you just said I find it really interesting the idea that you are on a certain path right and you you get an invitation to kind of deviate from that path right and many times we struggle with that right when we are on a path that we think is the path God has called us to but he opens a door somewhere else right sometimes people get confused as to whether you know the New Path is in any way in alignment with the old path that you are certain of right um how did you resolve that issue in your mind I I I prayed about it and what I what I was looking for was the peace right did I have a piece about this right I was 26 years old right things were moving in a good direction but I also felt I had a piece but I felt it would it would also help me grow having
(14:50)Finding Peace in Major Life Decisions
been at Hilson Bible college for a few years I you were a part of a very big world and I thought it would be good for from my development my from my from my next step right um and so I took that step in faith believing it was what God wanted me to do and I had the opportunity to obviously speak and so I was still I was still preaching the gospel which was my primary go okay so but you were not traveling as much as before so let me ask you a question right what was the most cuz sometimes right people get confused mhm right and they start to focus on the Travel aspect of preaching of for you yes right so there's a there's a there's a component of it that is just gospel yeah but there's a component of it that you kind of enjoy yes right that's the traveling you know you like TR you must like traveling to be a traveling Minister I I hate traveling you have to like it you have to like it you have to like being on a plane you have to like hotel rooms waiting in airport yeah yeah there has to be some affinity for it right and sometimes that Affinity can then become our Focus yeah as opposed to the core issue which is the preaching of the Gospel right and then we start to pursue anything that has that Affinity right anything that gives us that level of personal satisfaction and forget the the the core goal which is to preach the gospel you know I have a lot of people who start off saying well God has called them to finance the gospel right to make money for the gospel but very quickly the money becomes the issue not the gospel you know what I'm saying and yeah and then the focus becomes on the money uhhuh right and having the money and not bring the gospel part of it or God calls you to sing for the gospel right and then the focus becomes the singing and not the gospel right forgetting that really the provision the the vision is resourced because I mean sorry the the the the the part that we enjoy is given to us to Resource the vision M right not the other way around and the vision is always to lift up Christ that's right that's interesting that's right well and also I want to add in there my my heart was to preach the gospel but but but going through Bible College especially a college like Hillson College where there was huge focus on the local church right I had a real love and still do right for the local church right and so when I had the invitation to go and work for local church for the local church I it felt right because I I really value the local church and I feel my primary gift as I said is to preach the gospel right but But as time was going on even in those earlier years I felt a real passion within my communication to feel like well what can I add to the to the local church and having that grounding being a pastor on staff for for nearly five and a half years yeah pastoring people yeah it was good it was good for me cuz was developing yeah it was developing that inner I can tell you I can tell you look that one of my biggest frustrations right in Ministry um professionally is dealing with speakers who have no idea how the local church Works yes right you know there's a bit of a of a of a there's a bit of a reality when you have to deal with people on a daily basis yes right there's a love and a compassion that you develop for the people you deal with on a daily basis that people who just fly in mhm preach the gospel and go don't have they don't so there's sometimes a a hardness yes right an insensitivity and a lack of empathy yeah right to the reality of the pastor's ex ex the pastor's experience with his people you know and the um and the people's experience yeah right that that you get from itinerant ministers sometimes you know but I don't get that from you no but but I have seen that too and when I came off of stuff know we go into this part of the journey in a moment one of my one of my big big things yeah was I wanted to make sure that if I'm doing itinerant Ministry yeah that that not only do I want to see Soul saved I want to be a blessing I want to add something to the local church right I want you to know as a senior pastor of New Covenant House that I'm I'm going to bring something that's adding to what you are building day in Day Out week in week out you're taking people on that Journey from here to here what can I do that's going to strengthen what you're doing how can I be a blessing to the local church and that has always been my Outlook and I have felt in the last eight or nine years doing it that has been a huge benefit to me it has opened up the doors uh because it's genuine yeah it is genuine it really your church to succeed I want people to to be all that God has called them to be so what can I bring that's going to help you do that cuz I know I'm not dealing with you know the issues and problems that arise on a daily basis that land on the senior pastor's lap each day I know I don't have those issues now to deal with but what can I do that helps you and your people honestly that that is the difference for me in my relationship with you and a lot of people that I have met right because a lot of people just they have a message they won deliver their message don't get up yes they don't care about what's going on no just do my thing and get out but you know what let's leave the the the the professional side of let me ask you a question right that I think a lot of the folks who watch this will be interested so you a professional footballer right for like three four four four four years in in England professional for a year then semi-professional for okay well you played you played football for money yeah okay so so this is the thing right how did you we have this impression of of football players right how did you when you left and became a CHR chrisan uhhuh right how did you transition out of the football players life yeah and how did your mates take that it was really hard yeah it was really hard at first most people didn't believe me they didn't they they just thought they just thought I've gone along to a service I've got caught up in the emotion right give him a few weeks he'll be back and he'll be back M I had to take drastic action PF to change so I I I resigned from the football club and and I was living away from home I moved back home to my parents I had to do that okay because I felt if I didn't and I hung around I'd probably be likely to go back to go back to it it was a very dramatic change and not everyone can make those changes in the moment but I felt I had to right and it was painful and yes I did get um ridiculed yeah a little bit and I also got questioned people in the game many people say Luke this is a this is a big opportunity like most people especially young boys and now girls too in England love football Love Soccer yeah you you could have a career even if you don't reach the very top you could probably have an okay career at a lower level um you're giving up a lot you might regret this so I I I was on the receiving end of quite a few of those conversations in fact I have spoke about it a couple of times perhaps not here but one of my biggest critics was my own Granddad really my own grandfather he's not here now he's passed away but he came and heard that me preach that first sermon on that day we were all excited what happened he wasn't a Christian he he wasn't a Christian but after that service we all went back to my parents house for lunch and he he got so angry so angry and he he he stood up and he said why would you do this why would you give up a career in footb to pursue this sort of life in church he said it's a waste of time he said I I want to bet with you in 10 years time he said you regret it you'll regret it you won't be doing this he told me that day I was a waste of a grandson what that's what he said to me you're a waste of a grandson he had he had traveled around he used to watch me when I was growing up play but hey this is eight that was 18 19 years ago yeah I'm still preaching I'm still I'm still I'm still loveing it I I have no no regrets like I said but I did face yeah some some tough conversations I can I can imagine it it's always you know lead following God is never easy you know people sometimes think that as long as God is involved there will be no storms you know and many times right Jesus was in the boat with the disciples he asked them to get in the boat yeah he was in the boat with them and both times right they were obeying his instructions he was actually with them and they experienced storms that shook them to the core of their being and one of my biggest frustrations with the gospel being preached particularly on social media yeah is this Christianity of convenience right that if if God is with you you will not experience anything right and when you experience stuff is either because you're a sinner and you need to go and you know investigate your sins and for a lot of us particularly those of us not all particularly those of us of African descent is something your ancestor did right so we we're caught in this Loop of sin either it's our sin or our ancestors have sinned so we we're in this cycle of repentance right trying to find a solution to problems that the Bible already told us was going to happen right think about it if Jesus is in the boat with you yeah and the Bible says he was sleeping yeah while the storm was going on yeah right the second time around he told them get in the boat I'll meet you on the other side he did and there was a storm in the middle of that of that Journey so storms are a part of our reality yes it is not necessarily a consequence of sin in fact I'd go as far as saying that storms are not a bug they sometimes are a feature of the of the operating system right because the Bible says that when we go through these things it has an impact on us it does that can be beneficial it does right but talking about storms I know that you went through a storm that I I have not been through that particular storm I've been through similar storms and when I think about what you went through with the loss of your daughter yes I don't know how you I don't know how you survived that cuz that is a thing that when I think about my kids I can only imagine how devastated that must devastating that must have been for you and and and your wife so can you if you don't mind telling us a little bit you know about about about that so it was April 2015 okay I was still working for Hillsong London right and we had journeyed through the nine months of pregnancy in fact we had just purchased our first house 3 weeks prior to the due date okay and everything was set up the car seats were in the car the nursary was decorated um Lisa went in for her final Lisa wife Lisa my wife she went in for the final scan just a couple of days before the due date and I had been at every appointment and typically this was the only appointment I wasn't there and they the scenographer you know they put the gel on the tummy and they they scan the the belly and they couldn't detect a heartbeat um three weeks to you did no three days three days we we bought our house we were all set 3 weeks three days to do at least was fullterm we were we were just a couple of days out from 40 weeks Lisa was big and yeah we were ready I mean we were ready uh we were ready actually for what was meant to be the best day of Our Lives yeah but it turned into the worst day of Our Lives they couldn't detect the heartbeat I got up to the hospital as quick as I could I remember running through those long white corridors uh thinking what am I going to walk into and when I walked into the room Lisa was on the bed just distraught and that was it that was it the the nine Monon Journey was over and you know I I I I think of it a bit like this to help people understand how some of that felt because I I can tell you the pain the pain is very very hard to describe very hard to describe but let me put it to you like this it's a bit like preparing on going on a great holiday you know when you're pregnant think of it as going on a holiday to like the Caribbean you know like an exotic climate you're already you're you're anticipating the future you you're you're packing up your the right clothes the right attire your mindset is heading towards this day and so you get on the plane and you start your journey and you're talking about it you're ready you think you're ready but when the plane lands you get out the plane you're in the North Pole you're not in the Caribbean you didn't know you were going to be in the North Pole you you have you have no tools you have no no no of none of the right clothes you don't know where you are you don't know how to to to deal with now what you've stepped into you go into what you just mentioned which is survivor mode yeah I've now got to survive in in an environment I have no idea how to survive add to the fact that I'm a pastor in a in a large church that would speak regularly and you've got several thousand people that know we're expecting a baby yeah and I'm known and you know me I'm a faith man yeah I preach Faith yeah with great Passion right and and now I've got nothing to show for our 9month journey very hard very hard and uh the pain was was intense and and and and grief you enter into this this Grief Mode and grief means intense sorrow yeah and it was it cut very deep I can I can only imagine very deep we held her for three days F the the um the hospital I'll allow you that okay she was perfectly formed in fact her death was recorded as unexplained I believe for three days that that God could rise her from the dead but he didn't so I was then you know thrust into this new Journey uh new walk with God the god I'd loved the god I had served the god I had followed now felt like he was nowhere to be seen I was very angry with God how could he do this how could he let this happen and so I went on a New Journey A New Journey with the Lord right you know so so so when when when that happened right yes did you think first of all did you did you feel like you did something wrong do you worry that you had done something wrong I I didn't worry if I done anything wrong but I do remember thinking back was there anything we could have done differently right or could I have done something a bit better right you know um but I didn't feel like I'd done anything wrong as such yeah but I did feel an overwhelming sense of shock and like I said like it pushed me into this wrestle with God what about your wife Lisa how how did she how did she um how did she take it apart from the grief was she was there any self-questioning was there any you know yes Alisa is a physician she is she a doctor she's a doctor yes she is um yes she did for a long time she she often asked herself the question you just asked me right EX I could have done what could I have done what could I have done should I have detected something internally earlier right could you know could I have done this could I have done that and I think for for many women we have since found out having now been in this world for a long time it's a common interestingly it's a common process we don't hear about until it happens you don't realize how common that is yeah and how Not Unusual it is yeah well L was her name yes that was L it actually meant we named her before she was born before this happened l means God's Perfection oh wow so you know wow you know I actually felt part of my reasoning as to why it happened I I felt that God made a perfect that he didn't want sin to contaminate her yeah so she bypassed Earth and went straight to heaven um but over the last nine years having she would have been nine this year yeah and I I Don't Preach about it all the time I speak about it sometimes but whenever I do the amount of people that come up to me after a service men and women in fact I've had a lot of men yeah because you don't often hear men talk about talk about it you might hear the women but even then it's not it's not common they talked about but the amount of people that come forward afterwards and say well we we we've had a miscarriage or we we cannot conceive or we've had a stillborn or even infant death yeah it it come it doesn't matter what country I'm in yeah is is it's way more more common than what we realize absolutely one of the biggest challenges for me as a pastor is when an old person passes it's painful but sometimes it's it's okay you know they they're not they're not well you know and they're going to rest you know um when a younger person passes it's harder yeah right yeah um I've conducted funeral for older people for younger people but the most painful thing for me is the funeral of an infant yes you know having to bury a child yes it is the is the most distasteful part yes of pastoring yes you know because it just does not make any sense no well I I we had a very large funeral for L and I carried the goofin myself I wanted to do that and I wanted to speak myself on that day but I find with hard loss versus those you lose later on in life yeah one thing I learned the pain is because you really grieve the future your mind has already gone there like I said you're thinking about what is he or she going to look like how are they going to grow up what's their personality going to be and so you you visualize you dream of the future yeah but when that gets cut off so instantly you have to grieve the future whereas when you are dealing with those towards the end of their days you have memories so you can still hold on and be grateful that you had those memories those memories we don't have that the little one so you you you grieve the future and how do you grieve how how how does that look like because I think one of the biggest challenges with folks grief across the board is what is because you hear so many different things right you hear that well you're a Christian you can't do this you know well let this out keep this in you it's such a confusing um path for the folks who are on it first of all you're dealing with the pain yeah right and then you're dealing with your perception of how God is how God is what's God's role in this whole situation and then you're also dealing with what people are thinking right you know when my wife lost her sister um I I've lost a I've lost a sister and I've lost a mother right I lost my sister when I was not a a Christian I lost my mother after I had became a pastor when my wife lost her elder sister who is a who was a pastor and a pastor's wife lovely lovely lady I remember that she um she was really really close to her sister her sister was like our our best friend wow um and when she passed right my wife I one of the things that I when I think back about it I feel that I may not have allowed her grieve right I may not have given her the room to to grief because I was so um conscious of the idea that grief can turn into something else yeah right and I didn't know how to control or be involved in it if it went South so to speak and a very very dark Road yes so and that can happen yeah yeah and actually I've got a good example of that okay because that helped me with my grief okay not long after the loss of baby El we received some counseling um that was provided through an organization connected to the hospital okay and this lady came around to our house it was about three or four weeks after the loss of L and I remember sitting there and this lady had lost her her stillborn baby 30 years ago she was so bitter she was still so angry angry and I was very angry with God she wasn't a Christian this was a secular organization I was angry with God and I can get on to that in a moment especially for that first month right right but this lady I remember sitting there thinking she is here to councel me and my wife but the way she is talking I don't want to be like that in 30 years time so that was an that was a the grief for taking over her life years and and she had never moved on from that place and it was over 30 years ago and I thought wow I I remember thinking I was I was in a bad way myself but I remember listening to her thinking that cannot be me 30 years 30 years time so I don't know how I'm going to do this because everyone Grieves differently yeah and and there's no blueprint to it there are many different facets involved there's there's the you and God like you said then there's what other think then there's the workplace there's and there's your family who are also deeply affected by what you're going through there's your friends there's those you're friends with who are pregnant yeah who who have just had their children there's family members that are having babies so there's a number of different things that all come into play but grief I found is is like a tidal wave yeah some days it would just sweep over you it would pull you down it would knock you off your feet other other days you might be better yeah we learned early you couldn't even take it day by day it was almost hour by hour hour by hour Lisa and I would would communicate a lot we would have deep periods of Silence um I said I was very angry for that first month in fact I went against everything I had preached for many years I couldn't read my Bible PF for that first month I couldn't pick it up I thought where is God I don't I don't want to read this even though I I know it's full of comfort and Promises I couldn't read it cuz I felt so angry and that's dangerous you know a Christian going through a storm yeah not reading their Bible it's like riding a bicycle at night on the edge of a cliff yeah it's only going to get worse yes and you could fall off the cliff and you can fall off the cliff and and trust me there were days when I thought I don't think I'll ever preach again I don't even know if I want to follow Christ what's my actual reason for being here yeah I would have to deal with that now Lisa it was even deeper for Lisa I can imagine for the first 5 years she couldn't really talk about it to others outside of our family or a particular counselor that we sought who was very helpful with our grief now that also is another interesting point to make for me because up until that point I had always been the one counseling people and now I found myself needing counsel needing counseling yeah we went to a couple of people that didn't quite gel but we found some someone she was very good she was very good she she it was really painful whose idea was the counseling you or Lisa's I think it was probably Lisa's yeah cuz she sounds more professional she's the boss you know she's the boss it was probably Lisa but she wanted us to do it together now the first couple of people we saw we saw two people that were a complete disaster and I was like I I told you I told you this was a bad idea this was a bad idea in fact I went into her room once and we were meant to be getting counseling together and she had me sit at the back of the room and she she she and not next to Lisa and just wanted to deal with Lisa and I had to sit in the cor I was like like like a 5-year-old what is this I'm in trouble I've come here I've been brave because it is it takes takes courage to get help yeah especially in Ministry yeah oh yeah and especially as a man oh yeah it takes courage yeah but when we found this lady yeah she was very good awesome would get she would get under my skin she would ask me some really personal questions yeah give me one example of a of a question she what was it well I know I I I one thing she said this she would she I can't remember how she framed it but I would give a very polished answer right she wouldn't have ah she said look are you telling me what you think I want to hear or are you telling me the truth that would irritate you and that irritates because you know I'm a bit of a word Smith would say I like to be good with my words and she would say tell me the truth no you you you you speak for a living yeah and so I'm like she knew that yeah but then she said why are you telling me what you think I want to hear yeah and and I had to wrestle with this for a few weeks and I realized what it was I didn't want to put my burden or my lack of faith or my doubting of God onto her yeah or or on Lisa or on Lisa but then she said to me and I'll never forget it she said luk when you counsel people and they'd tell you they're struggling with God this this and that about their faith do you ever walk away and say yeah you're right I'm out no I don't yeah I take what they say and I deal with it she said why are you carrying that burden for me and that helped me so after that I was really in a good place where I could go through it but that first year PF was really hard the first Christmas the first birthdays the first Mother's Day the first Father's Day especially in around Church settings yeah where everyone else's life moved on yours hasn't yeah that's that's the hardest thing one of the hardest things with with losing somebody is that life does not stop for everyone else life comes to stand still for you and that becomes the central focus of your life in that season you know and for the lady who that lasted for 30 years yeah right but immediately yeah everybody moves on they do they do like literally the doctors move on yeah your family moves on yeah your friends move on yeah you know but you you are stuck yeah in this catastrophe yes right and after a while Life Starts to draw you mhm like we got stuff to do we got bills to pay we got to go back to work right how do you how did you navigate that that I need to keep living yeah and even if you don't want to keep living life is demanding your attention well I like to look at it like this grief no matter what grief is it leaves a hole in the heart yes that hole never gets smaller no life around it gets bigger true so we we we had to make a decision and we did after that first month or so that we were going to we were going to have to move forward but it was going to be slow okay we were we were going to be we were constantly told by good people that we needed to be kind to ourselves and so so it was it was small steps and some days it felt like you weren't moving at all right but we did make some conscious decisions that we need to we do we we're in a valley yeah but we can't camp in a valley right we can't set our home up in the valley we can't get comfortable in the valley we we even if if the if the steps forward are minimal we got to keep taking it it still means getting out of bed it still means brushing your teeth right Lisa was off at work for a period of time anyway because of what was set up with maternity leave right and for me I had five or six weeks off and then I was back to five or six weeks was five or six weeks enough looking back yeah probably not yeah probably not yeah you know because but at that point from memory there wasn't anyone else that was on the staff or had been on staff that had had or had been through what I had been through right so I don't think there was it wasn't a there wasn't a roadway or a map to to sort of integrate me back in it was like you're back and people were compassionate don't get me wrong and they they were trying to be supportive but but internally you're still crushed yeah let so so how did you okay so there two two things number one how did you and Lisa deal with each other right what was that relationship like cuz one of the things that I have seen in pastoring is the loss of a child from miscarriage to still born to you know the death of a child even after birth is one thing a lot of marriages don't survive yeah right how did you guys survive it and not only survived it you are thriving yeah together yeah I've seen that too and that served as again warning to me because I didn't want that for our marriage yeah Lisa and I we are good at communicating with each other okay and and that that is the Bedrock of our healthy relationship aside from Christ at the center and our love for one another we are good communicators so when you communicate you talk about your feelings our feelings not just facts no noing feelings and I am good I feel as a man not not not bragging but I I I recognize I I do need to share with Lisa how I felt now I would say in those early months perhaps I bottled it up because I she was so crushed I I didn't want to put any more on her but what helped our marriage is she would say to me I want you to tell me because I want to know that you still feel how I feel and that helped you know so then when I said look okay I am I am broken I am I am really upset with God still I am this I am that and even when I would cry it would help her right so that I think just being transparent with one another was key okay so so I I love what you just said about being transparent but what if the two of you felt about about it differently you know what I mean what what if your approach to it was more you know what it is what it is we move right and she was caught in this yeah you know yeah how would you have communicated to her right yeah if you felt that way well I suppose as time went on I did move on faster faster um I still I felt like I had to seek permission for Lisa especially when it went back to starting to preach right and teach that that she was okay with that really yeah yes I did because I was mindful that if I start talking about it it also means people then feel they can come up to both Lisa and I so so you you you wait so you guys have a shared experience right but you felt like you had to ask her permission yeah to to minister to start talking public right to start talking publicly about it why why did you feel like you had to do that I felt I had to do that because I knew that it would drum up interest and that people ATT attention and that then people would would come and ask more questions right and I wanted to make sure Lisa was okay with that right and she wasn't she was not not to begin with no oh really yeah yeah okay not to begin with because and she wasn't for a long time she like I said a moment ago she outside of a media family she did not want and people would come we were a large church right people didn't know what to say in fact people would make it worse you know people would say all sorts are you're still young enough to to have more more oh my God people can be so insensitive and so thoughtless man it doesn't work like that no we have gone on to have two Miracle children but but they don't replace no they never they never will they never will you know um so so yeah I I I had to keep her on the same page now the tougher days were when we were both very down CU what we tend to find is every day is different and some days I might be feeling a bit stronger than her and some days she was feeling a bit stronger than me the worst days were when we were both down so on the days when you feeling stronger she's feeling stronger how did you guys navigate that how did that not become resentment why are you feeling so strong how how have you moved on so quickly I think if if I'm honest you'd have to ask Lisa that question you know I think she struggled with that a little bit more than than me okay because she did find it hard when I was seemingly yeah we we we need to have Lisa on our podcast but I can't imagine that she she's going to want to talk about this oh no she well she's she's she has got much better in the last couple years I got say she would would be nine now so Lisa can add again even more valuable Insight the more I can okay well the next time you're coming to you got to bring Lisa I'll bring I'll bring Lisa but but it does come back to it we we we we pray together a lot we walked together a lot and on those walks we could talk and and Lisa would say she would tell me that she's finding it hard that I seem to be moving forward but she also recognized that for me when I started writing it out and obviously I didn't preach for six months after that loss so they I had six months away from the platform which was right yeah which was right yeah but when I got back up it helped me yeah because I was able to write down my thoughts and Lisa saw that was almost quite cathartic yeah you know that it was helping my healing process right and I think she recognized that right and knew that it was helping me move forward and if I'm strong that strength transfers to her because I'm leading it seems like the two of you right even though you were separate individuals right experiencing this pain as individuals Lisa had carried l in her in her womb for for for 9 months you had carried her in your heart yes right good for 9 months very true you still did not seem to go into your little Corners right you kind of clung to each other we did you know you you shared your grief with each other we did right you didn't isolate from each other that's correct and and it seems like that helped your healing yes right that you healed together we did you know I find like a lot of couples will isolate yes right you know and go into their Corners to deal with their grief how they like right and the other person becomes Like a Stranger as opposed to a partner yes right so it's like we we partner together in life yeah we have to partner together even in grief yeah you know we we grieve together even though we grieve in different ways yeah right but we have to respect each other's way of grieving and give the other person space to grieve while holding their hand that's very good you know in on on on that journey I think that's the way couples survive this what the Bible says doesn't it when we get married to become one to become one and we were yeah we were one in this yeah yeah she like you said feels different she actually carried the baby you know I I never get I will never know what that feels like it's a different feeling that the is much deeper she had to have the baby think about that you know it's it's a we had a cesarian but still going through that whole process process to know that nothing nothing no no no crying you want to hear crying don't you yeah you want to you want to have that moment she carries all that too which I didn't but but being around her right and her talking through that with me yeah was so key you let her talk I let her talk and I listen you didn't shut shut it down no we have to listen as men yeah we struggle with that we want to shut it down like look look look look everything is going to be okay you know we we're going to be fine don't worry about it let's let's keep going we do but but when but when you even look at some of the heroes of the faith in the Bible I look at Moses I'm going to I'm going to talk on this in church tomorrow you know there's a story where where Joshua is fighting Moses and Joshua are fighting the amalekites right Moses on the mountain he's on the mountain Joshua is in the valley I'm going to talk on this tomorrow Moses took two men with him Aaron and her up onto the hilltop yeah cu the only way they were going to win was if they held their hands up till sunset every time he load his hands the amalekites were winning every time he raised him the the Israelites were winning yeah Moses asked two men to come with him yeah he asked for help yes this is the hero the Bible says he's a hero of the faith yeah this is the man who looked Pharaoh the most powerful dictator on the planet at that time yeah Moses Moses yeah asked to meant to help can you imagine and and that I remember reading that yeah during that time and I was like all right I need help I need help yeah and and I need me and Lis need to talk about it but we need people to come alongside us yeah and this is where the church comes in yeah the people that were praying for us yeah people we knew people we didn't know the local church yeah they they were the people that came alongside us and propped us up propped us up and you know as long as you're lifting up your hands yeah as hard as it is you can see victory yeah you will see Victory you can you can make a Way Forward yeah um I've seen it let me ask you a question uhuh is it okay to move forward after a loss but you need you have to you have to you have to but but you move forward different to how you were before again I look at it through the Bible yeah Jacob right wrestles with God yeah I wrote a book about and what struck me he was it was at night time it was in the dark and he wrestles with God in the dark in the dark cannot see can't see you he's wrestling in the dark yeah but he won't let go he holds on it says he held on and he said I will not let you go until you bless me yeah and I like that because it made me think all right all right there's got to be a blessing here attached to my wrestle I don't know what it is but the only way I'm going to find out is if I slowly move forward I have to move forward I wanted L's life to count yeah it had to mean something yeah and so either I do what that lady did and I say that's it I'm done I'm going to live bitter for the rest of my life or I'm going to move forward in a way where I can help others where I can where I can sort of truly see what God has for me I mean my my life changed yeah completely you move forward with a limp that's what happened in Jacob's story he never walked the same again not possible after that struggle after that wrestle with God my walk will never be the same yeah I walk with a limp yeah but I also walk with authority yeah I I I have a much deeper Bond I feel with the Lord I understand people's pain yeah I can empathize with people on a level like I was never able to before yeah I know what it means to to Really test your faith yeah to be refined find in the fire yeah and that has has been a launching pad yeah to to to me both personally but also for my Ministry I was doing okay before that happened but I can tell you the last eight years of my life coming into my ninth year yeah since that day my Ministry you know it's interesting that that we associate discomfort and pain and even grief sometimes as failure MH right yeah and and I struggle with that you know I struggle with that because there's this construct in Christianity that I was alluding to earlier the absence of the absence of difficulty we equate with blessing yeah and the presence of difficulty we equate with you know we're out of line we're out of step with God right and you and Lisa were very much in step with God right you were full of Faith you were doing work yeah right you were loving each other yeah you know you had given up opportunities for this God and still this happened to you yeah you know and and and that encourages me CU I spent a large part of my Christianity expecting that The Closer I got to God the safer I was from the storms of life right but the truth is the closer you have you get to God the better you're able to deal with the storms of life that's right right being loved by God did not stop Joseph from being thrown into the pit it didn't stop him from ending up in slavery it didn't stop Mrs pitifer from plotting against him you know the promise of God is that no weapon formed against you will prosper they will be formed they will be formed but they will not Prosper that's right right Every curse that is spoken against you will not find room to perch in your life like a sparrow will fly around but it will be spoken yes you know he says when you pass through the fire yeah it will not burn you I love that script when you pass through the floods I love that they will not overwhelm you right but we will pass through the fire will and we will pass through the floods that's right we're going to stand in valleys yeah we're going to stand before mountains yes the promise of God is that he will help us through it that's right and he will in those situations work actively does he will for our work all things together for good for good and it's hard to quote that scripture yeah and to stand on that when you're going through the fire that's what good can come out of this but that's when it really kicks in yeah maybe you can open open up your thought on this a little bit but one of the big things that was that was a game Cher for me in that process was when I thought I got the question uh from God can he trust me with that pain we all go through painful times yeah but can he trust you with it yeah when you think about that pain can he trust you with the pain yeah we have to think about what the pain is though what is that pain well it depends doesn't it on what you're going through yeah no what I mean is that you can see the pain as a negative which is how we see it in the middle of it uhhuh or you can see it as the fire that the refiner needs yeah yes to refine metal that's right that's right you know I was talking to somebody and I said to her that you have never seen anything a beautiful bracelet that has not been through fire that's right you know and and those of us who want to be vessels unto honor must understand that there is a refining element to that and and if you can understand that yeah right then I think God can trust you with that yeah right but if you don't understand it then the fire rather than build you then destroys you yeah right and and that is one of the things that makes me so vehemently irritated yeah with a lot of the social media pastors yeah yeah they create this scenario of perfection right the people around you have to be perfect your circumstances have to be perfect your money has to be perfect and if there's no Perfection or there's any lack of perfection there's either something wrong with you right or something something wrong with the people around you but in your story and many stories that I've experienced personally that I have seen is that that pain right is a must is something that you are going to pass through you going to pass through that's the key you're going to pass through there's something about it there's something about it that you can only learn yeah when you pass through it have you ever learned anything when you were happy no when happiness validates what you're doing you enjoy that feeling yeah but but when you reflect yeah you learn through the valley there are things in that season I would never have learned had I not gone through now do I wish I hadn't gone through of course absolutely maybe there was another way but but I did and and and it thrust me into a wrestle with God say here the wrestle was worth it amen amen we we have to wrap up you know now but I I want to leave you guys with a a thought God loves you right profoundly if you were the only person on Earth God will still send his son to die for you right that love means that the decisions he makes concerning your life the thoughts that he have that he has concerning you are always motivated by that love so whatever it is you're going through if you can understand that then you can have peace in the middle of the storm that is why Jesus slept while the boat was being tossed left right and Center because he understood the the love of God and he understood that the love of God would keep him right because that was what was good for him and when it was time for the love of God to let him hang on the cross that's what the love of God did that's what the love of God did very good because right now he's seated at the right hand of majesty that's right you know that's right man this was good look thank you so much I really really appreciate you opening up uh opening up with us and all the folks who watch this particular episode you know I I I I suspect that some of you have been through what Luke has been through and what I have been through and I know that the Lord will comfort you I know that the Lord will strengthen you and I know that the Lord will heal you and I pray that in the midst of the storm even with tears pouring down your eyes there will be peace in your heart somehow somehow all right guys take care bless unfilter [Music]